Author Topic: Invader problems  (Read 21716 times)

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gixxer6

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Re: Invader problems
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2015, 02:01:47 PM »
IMO its a three bears situation: 

Too much oil = HP decrease
Not enough oil = HP decrease
Somewhere in between = best HP

I agree with Boom, mixing gas = leaner burn.  But in most cases it's negligible. 

Tory944

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Re: Invader problems
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2015, 03:06:02 PM »
Popcorn.  Guess I'll throw my books in the garbage...
Torys Vintage Sleds
Website:  torysvintagesleds.com

rminier

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Re: Invader problems
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2015, 05:17:30 PM »
  Not throwin' any jabs here, or intending to upset anyone. Feel free to sound off, because I don't have all the facts at hand that I would prefer. I have been perplexed with this "pre-mix" issue in conjunction with oil injection, after reading posts on several snowmobile sites.
  30 some years ago, I popped the carbs off of my Invader and my Sno Jet in the fall to clean them. I didn't have the intelligence to use any type of fuel stabilizer (back then) in the spring. The Invaders carbs, using straight gas, had the most disgusting build up of green "pond scum" in the float bowls. The Sno Jet used 40/1 pre-mix, and the float bowl was absolutely pristine.
  Pretty much ever since, I have added about 3 oz. of oil to 5 gal. of gas (3.2 oz. is a 200/1 ratio) to all of my injected sleds, and continued to use the injection system.
  I like the fact that this provides a tiny bit of lubrication to the throttle slides, and may help prevent corrosion in the float bowl when you inevitably get some water in the tank. I see Dandby7 is mixing at 100/1, Tory is going 70/1. I say pick your poison. I know, it defeats the "gas and go" convenience of injection, but I don't mind.
  We could all agree that there is some "perfect" oil/fuel ratio that exists at a given moment in time. An Invader, cruising at 40 mph...maybe it's 70/1. There has to be enough oil, under varying loads, to adequately protect the motor.
  I hear ya' when you say adding oil to the tank displaces some of the fuel. Lesse', if I have a regular Mikuni with a 300 main jet, and I pre-mix the tank at 50/1  (a 2 percent solution) I have effectively displaced 2 percent of the gas, or reduced the main jet "effectively" to a 294 jet. If I'm borderline lean, I just seized a piston.
 BUT...2 stroke oil burns....it COMBUSTS in the combustion chamber, along with the gas. I don't know this, but I bet the oil burns at a lower flash point temperature than gas. So, your perfect EGT of 1100 degrees just dropped to 1090. HOW can the addition of a tiny, additional amount of oil to the mixture contribute to what we consider the classic "lean burn down"?
 I will leave it up to you to discuss the miniscule change in the viscosity of the fluids and any effect on the flow thru the jets.
  There is some "perfect" fuel/oil mix that exists...it depends on your goals. What may be the most sensible for emissions may not be best for engine longevity, or maximum HP. I think most of us would agree, a LIL' bit extra oil promotes engine life and probably frees up the motor a tiny bit. Frankly, we adjust the oil injection pumps and cables and we're probably lucky if we are within 10 percent of IDEAL. Gas mixture is a little more dicey. But, it's up to us to discover what mixture, jetting, etc. works best.
  So, have at it. I'm all ears. I learn sumthin' every day. Trouble is I forget more these days. :D

Sorry, back to unfortunate 440RX and the piston failure. It sure sounds like you did everything correctly and competently to expect a motor that ran well, and then this happened. I wouldn't worry about an oil problem. The intake side of the piston would have been all scarred up from lack of oil. It sure looks like that PTO piston got hot. I see a guy responded to your post on "Vintagesleds" discussing a bent connecting rod causing him grief. Certainly possible. I rather think you need to re-visit why the PTO side probably ran lean...hey, we have all been there and done that, despite trying to be careful. Some tiny air leak on that side, or, tear into that carb again to make sure all is well....no speck of debris found its way into a jet, no float hanging up, etc. Hang in there!
« Last Edit: February 06, 2015, 05:28:53 PM by rminier »
75 SnoJet Astro SS, 79 Kawasaki Invader 440 (two of them), 81 Scorpion Sidewinder, 82 Blizzard 9500, 83 Yamaha Vmax 540, 97 MXZ 670....and holding...for now.

rminier

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Re: Invader problems
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2015, 05:55:56 PM »
Whoops, failed to add one more thing. If you add enough oil to the mix and displaced some gas, the energy level of the mix (BTUs) will certainly be reduced. 2 Stroke oil can't have as much energy as gas. Again, up to us to find that ideal equation with oil mix and carb jetting.
75 SnoJet Astro SS, 79 Kawasaki Invader 440 (two of them), 81 Scorpion Sidewinder, 82 Blizzard 9500, 83 Yamaha Vmax 540, 97 MXZ 670....and holding...for now.

440RX

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Re: Invader problems
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2015, 06:05:27 AM »
I will look at engine again (very carefully) .I have 1 NOS cylinder so maybe take the good PTO side Cyl,piston, head , carb and place on mag side and place NOS cylinder and other items on PTO side and see what happens.. Make sure I warm up well .If it does again on mag side more than likely in bottom end? If it does on PTO side to my NOS cylinder. something up Top(Carb?). Maybe all will be fine.

kawhead

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Re: Invader problems
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2015, 11:26:11 AM »
on the oil/lean burn issue.....i delivered and lake test run literally 100's of mercury 2 stroke outboards since 1975, 40 hp on up, always mixed at 25/1 as per factory specs, [back in the 50/1 shake and bake days ;D], doubt if the factory wants new motors run lean.....

440RX

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Re: Invader problems
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2015, 02:39:31 PM »
Due to running the K&N air breathers, I am thinking of Plugging off the econo jet and placing a main jet in needle jet location. I read somewhere hear to do this. Will that work ? What Main Jet? 280?

Checkmarks

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Re: Invader problems
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2015, 11:12:30 PM »
Really looks like a cold seizure.  Feel your radiator before you take off running.  Old plug color can take a while to mark correctly.  How cold was it outside when you toasted the piston and cylinder wall?

Guessing a 280 main with a plugged econ jet is dangerous.  On the razor (racer) edge 20°F change shifts the main jet approximately 5 points this way or that.   1000ft elevation change shifts approximately 5 points this or that.  Rich is fat but your piston stays in your cylinder not flowing out your exhaust.

Start knowingly rich.  Warm your motor to operating temp.  Put in new plug.  WOT for five full seconds.  Kill switch while WOT.  Pull plug.  Inspect the grounding strap.  Where the line is identified between shinny new and dull burned, tells you exactly where you are rich, right or lean.  A lot of work but then that is what R&D cost.  Fuel injection once dialed rules (also Holtzman engineering).  Two strokes and carburetor info can only be shared if they run the same motor, temps/elevation (called air density) with exact intake to pipe.

Boomologist

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Re: Invader problems
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2015, 04:56:19 AM »
Have often thought how nice it would be to have a good fuel injection on a Kawasaki.
Also would be nice to have a "Dial-a-jet".

Checkmarks

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Re: Invader problems
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2015, 11:55:11 PM »
Boom if you find yourself getting another sled get the Holtzman Atacc.  It auto adjusts for temperature and altitude  (old school FI).  Dial-a-jet you have to dial around.

gixxer6

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Re: Invader problems
« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2015, 07:17:39 AM »
Does the Holtzman system work the same as Ski-Doo's DPM used in the early/mid 2000's?

Checkmarks

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Re: Invader problems
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2015, 12:02:59 AM »
Holtzman uses a carburetor vacuum source controlling the float bowl pressure to meter the fuel.  Maybe specialized plastics that expand and contract manipulating the control, surely it must be propriety information.

Worst case when it fails the safeguard is the motor ends up too rich.

Just read up on DPM and it sounds like it uses sensors not varying expansions, but both vary the bowl pressure.

440RX

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Re: Invader problems
« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2016, 03:27:40 PM »
Well , I finally am going to start on fixing the engine again. I just opened hood after almost a year and noticed the crank case was full of oil. I would assume that it came in from the center bearing oilier. Nothing has came out the oil injection  at the cylinders.(the mag side was unhooked from cylinder with no oil spot from line and the pto side was dry at the intake ) shouldn't the check valve for the center bearing injection have kept this from happening? I tried to blow through the line from the oil pump to the center check valve and could not blow through. Bad check valve? Bad oil pump?Plan on starting rebuild Tomorrow.

Interceptor398

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Re: Invader problems
« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2016, 07:31:30 AM »
All the 2 cycle oil I have you cannot see thru??

440RX

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Re: Invader problems
« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2016, 07:54:49 AM »
It is SkiDoo 2cycle oil (Mineral oil) I use it in all my carbed sleds with great results .