KawasakiTrax Community
General Category => Kawasaki Owners => Topic started by: 58Evinrude on February 04, 2014, 06:00:18 PM
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Hi, I'm a newbie to Kawis. I just saved a 1980 440 Intruder from the scrap yard for a summer restore project. I was told it was running when it was brought in last year, but I can't get it started. The gas tank has been flushed, the carb cleaned, new gas lines, new Mikuni fuel pump, new filter, new plugs, new gas, and the best I get is the occasional cough from it after about 300 pulls. Compression is 120 PTO, 150 Mag. Good spark, jumps a 1/4" gap. I'm at a loss with it right now, I usually restore old outboards, so I know my way around a 2 stroke.
The oil tank has been removed, and everything disconnected at the oil pump. I can't see anywhere that the oil injection lines would go to.. so I'm wondering if there's an air leak there somewhere? From all I've read about crank seals, they will be replaced, but I'd at least like to hear it start first, and I'm thinking it should at least do that.
The plugs aren't getting wet, but I can see a film of gas on the top of the pistons. And, when I pull the plugs out after trying to start it, I get smoke out of both jugs. I've sprayed gas into the carb, poured it down the plug holes, even tried spraying ether into the carb. Nothing but an occasional cough, and twice it backfired out the exhaust.
Can the timing be so messed up it's not firing at the right time? Any other ideas?
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The Intruder I just resurrected did the same thing. Took about two days of pulling before I got it to run.
Turned out it was flooded. Do what you normally do for a flooded two-stroke. I cheated and used a little ether to get it going enough to knock the cobwebs out.
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Well, I'll try it again on the weekend. After a week it should have dried out if it was flooded, but it didn't seem to matter what I did to it, either adding fuel of changing out plugs for new ones, even tried heating the plugs before screwing 'em in. Ether didn't do anything, I sprayed it in the carb, sprayed it in the cylinders. And I did pull it for 2 days.. I really wish it had electric start ;)
Maybe this time I'll just start with ether before I try priming it or anything.. give it a quick spray and start pulling.
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A word of caution about using starting fluid, (you may already know this) it tends to dry out the cylinders and strips off the oil which is tough on cylinder walls, pistons, rings, seals, bearings, etc. Use it sparingly. A good way to clear out a flooded motor is to pull the spark plugs out, lay the machine on it's side (recoil side) and turn it over. It will shoot any gas from inside the crankcase out the plug holes.
Just another note, sometimes the muffler will fill with gas keeping the exhaust from exiting the motor and causing a no start condition. If it does start, gas will blow out the exhaust, and if you get a flame out the exhaust, the muffler may go boom.
Even more info, The standard Intruder fuel pump is a bit taller than the standard Mikuni pump. the extra height is an anti-siphon valve. it keeps the gas from siphoning through the carb and into the motor when the motor is not running. Using a standard Mikuni pump will work, but if the carb needle and seat are worn, you may drain the gas tank.
Flooding a motor is most definitely tough on crank seals! Once spark plugs get soaked, they don't always work even after they dry out.
Check for the big three... fuel, spark, compression. Sounds like you got fuel. Check for spark and then do a compression test. If you have less than 100-120 psi per cylinder, it most likely won't start.
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imo flooded bad.....i don't like the 120/150 compression,too big a spread....if it won't fire up now i'd pull the y pipe off,exaust side of piston/intake side of cyl can be looked at......old evies, huh?old ob's, old sleds, you've got the disease as bad as i do, poor b!@#$%^d ::)
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If it is flooded disconnect the fuel line or shut the fuel off by pinching the gas line. They can be a real bugger to get going again if you get gas in the crank case.
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Yeah, I'm not too happy about the compression spread either, but it's what I have to work with for now. OK, it seems to be a majority that figure it's flooded. I'll try drying it out on the weekend, and see what happens. I do know the evils of starting fluid in 2 strokes, but this is a one time deal.. I just want to hear it run!!
Are these chromed cylinders in the 440 fan motor? If they are, what's the solution for the low compression, just new rings or rings and piston?
Old outboards, old sleds, it is a disease.. and it only gets worse with time. :)
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If you can find a set of rings, go for it! oce you get it apart you will see if the cylinder is too bad to use. with the nikisil plating, oversize is not usually an option unless you send them in for replating. There are lots of replacement cylinders around.
If it isn't too bad, a very light hone could get you back in the running. Maybe the rings are stuck from sitting.
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Just the clear they are chrome plated not nikasil. Anyway, flooding aside, sounds like you should get more than just a cough. I agree with removing the Y-pipe and taking a gander at the piston skirts. One could be broken throwing off the port timing.
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i've had several flooded so bad all you get is 1 cough...as soon as it fires it must pull the rest of fuel out of the c case...imo now take the plugs out,spin her hard,ign off 1st in case therer is liq fuel there...new plugs, 2/3 spins no choke,no fire, a small shot of fuel/either in each carb,should pop,now you know rich or lean....i'd unhook impulse line till it fires to keep everything constant.....i've got a real nice evinrude starfire 90 s if you feel like a real challende ;D
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Once I get it fired, if ever, I'll take the engine out and do a rebuild, new seals, and see what's going on with the 120 compression. I don't think it's from sitting, it was that way last year when it went to the scrap yard. Hopefully I can get away with just a hone. When it backfired the couple of times, I'm not sure if it was in the exhaust, or in the case. For sure it wasn't out the carb.
I found out the reason it went to the yard.. to quote the former owner, "it stopped sucking gas", whatever the hell that means. If it doesn't start this weekend, I'll pull the y pipe, and look at the skirts.
Evinrude Starfire.. nope, no thanks. Too big to move around, one of these days I'll get the hoist in my garage. For now I'll stay with the small stuff, I've got a 5 1/2, 18, and 35 hp 1958 Rudes, and a couple of 1964 40 hp Gales. I have bigger stuff, up to a 225 Rude that's pushing my summer ride to 80 mph (so far :))
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I just ordered a set of rings.. may as well prepare for the worst
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If it is flooded leave the plugs out and pull it over a few times a day for a few days. Then try a fresh set of plugs and see if you can at least get er to pop. I did this with my 78 Invader and it took 3 days to get it to try and start.
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It'll have been sitting for 5 days time I get back to it.. I have more new plugs to try in it, I'll try it with no choke, no priming, and pinch the fuel line to the carb. If that doesn't work, I'll give it a small shot of ether.
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Hold the throttle wide open when you are trying to start it
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I tried that last weekend.. taped it wide open. Still just got the occasional cough out of it. I'll try it again on Sunday.
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Too bad you on the other side of the province, I'd be glad to help you out with it.
I'm curious to know more about that engine.
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only about 2 1/2 hours one way. I'll get her figured out Lloyd, if I can bring a 1927 outboard back to life, surely I can get a 1980 sled running :) Once I get it out, I'll take some good pics of the engine and post them.
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So it's been sitting for another week. I wrapped the pull cord on it, didn't touch anything, and gave it a yank. Ran for about 5 seconds, I'm guessing on one cylinder. After that, nothing. I pulled off the head on the mag side (130 comp side), the walls of the jug look perfect :), so if the rings I got fit, I should be ok. But, the engine is full of gas, so tomorrow I'll pull the clutch side plug, leave the head off the mag side head, and roll the machine on it's side to try and dry it out.
I'm waiting on a recoil starter for it, getting tired of wrapping the cord around the clutch. I may pull the motor tomorrow, if I do, I'll get some pics of it so you experts can tell me what the hell it really is.
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I just reread the entire post.
I bet your flooding problem is the same reason it was sent to scrap in the first place.
If it wasn't sucking gas, the fuel pump is done, damaged fuel pumps also let gas run into the crankcase.
Get it dried out, replace fuel pump. I bet she will run
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That was one of the first things I did.. drained and flushed the tank, new gas lines, new fuel pump, new plugs. I'm wondering if the case was flooded when it was scrapped last year, and has never dried out!! If it's year old gas, it will never fire!! I'll flip it over tomorrow, and see what comes out. I just finished fixing the same issue on my SRV.. case was full of fuel after sitting for a week, I put on a new pump, and did the carb again. Runs good.
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I rolled it on it's side this morning, onto the mag side, I left that head off, and had the plug out of the clutch side. At first there was a bit of pretty ugly old gas/oil mix running out, then nothing. I sprayed brake cleaner and ether into the mag cyl, and into the plug hole on the clutch side, and left it. I spun the motor by hand over the day, just trying to work all the crap out of the case.
after about 7 hours of this, I rolled it back flat, put the mag head back on, threw the plugs in it, and started pulling. I lost count, maybe 50 ? pulls later, and all I'm getting is the odd cough and some flames out the Y pipe. Tried gas down the cyls again, throttle wide open, throttle closed, choke on, choke off. Its getting frustrating. :(
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Been there. I'd start with replacing the crank seals, and take a good look at the carb boots for cracks or tears. I fought with an Invader for a long time only to find that one of the 'newly installed' crank seals the Previous owner installed was torn open.
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I think I'm just going to pull the motor and re-do it. Do the seals, check the bearings, replace the rings on the low compression cylinder. I really think the timing is wonky too. From what I can tell, not being a Kawi expert, it's a 440 lower with 440 Drifter cylinder jugs, single carb. There is an oil pump on the case, but I can't find anywhere that the oil would be injected.
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What are your plans for this sled?
Do you want to get it running and go from there?
Do you want to switch it too an Intruder top end?
Do you want oil injection? Or leave it premix?
Lloyd
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What are your plans for this sled?
Do you want to get it running and go from there?
Do you want to switch it too an Intruder top end?
Do you want oil injection? Or leave it premix?
Lloyd
Lloyd, if I can see where you are leading you are suggesting that it might make more sense to get an actual Intruder motor in that sled than to try to make a frankenmotor run. I have never seen frankenmotors go well, always second guessing if something is set or calibrated right or not.
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Your on the right path Mark.
If he wants it back to twin carbs and oil injection. I think now is the time to do it.
Would be cheaper and less frustrating to get a complete Intruder engine than to find the pieces and return that one to original.
If it is a sled to bomb around on, It should work the way it is.
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I bought it to try and make a nice running, good looking machine. Fast is always good too. It's not a sled that I want to take on 200 mile runs, but it's no problem for me to run 40 or 50 miles on the trails in an afternoon, and I'd like to be comfortable doing that, without worrying that's it's gonna melt down on me.
I'm not in a rush to get it running this year (well, I would at least like to hear more than a cough), I'll take my time, and do it right. If the experts don't think it will work with the drifter jugs, than I'll have to track down some Intruder parts, jugs, carbs, etc. I don't even know for sure just what the engine is, but it does have the right numbers on the fan shroud to be an Intruder 440. I agree that it would be a lot simpler and easier to find a complete Intruder 440 engine, and start from there.
Once I get the engine out, I'll post some pics, and you experts can tell me what it is :). All I know is it's single carb, with an oil pump on the case. The oil injection would be nice to have working, but it's not a necessary item.
Once I get the mechanical items sorted out, then I'll worry about bringing the cosmetics back to as near to factory as I can.
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It should run just fine with Drifter jugs and carb. 440 Drifters and nice running sleds.
My thought was if you want it back to the way it left the factory now is the time to switch it back.
If you just want a sled to bomb around on, get it running the way it is. If you want to use Drifter jugs and have oil injection the intake manifold for an 81 Drifter would let you do that.
There are a number of combinations you can use.
I was just trying to figure out where you wanted to go with the sled. I have some parts I would sell if you wanted to change anything on it.
Lloyd
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If it's not totally factory, that doesn't bother me, I'm not interested in doing a nut and bolt restoration. I do want something that won't melt down. If it will run with the Drifter parts, that's ok with me. The oil injection would be nice, just because my other sleds have it, and I wouldn't need to have separate gas/oil mix on hand for the Kawi. Other than that reason, I'll run premix.
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Another week, another try at starting it. I got a couple of coughs, maybe a 2 second spurt once, then nothing. Getting a bit frustrated with something that was supposed to be in running condition, so I yanked out the motor, and started pulling it apart. The timing mark was where it should be, that throws my idea of bad timing out the window. Lets split the case. The case has been apart fairly recently, not much dirt or grime on the motor at all. Bolt heads are all good, all feel evenly torqued when I cracked them. There's enough excess case sealant to seal up about 3 cases, it's hanging out all the way around the case. I'm wondering if the seals have been done??
Guess what, the mag side seal is not sealing anything!! It's split wide open, the spring is off, the rubber is wrapped around the crank maybe 1/2 way. The clutch side looks OK, from what I can see. But it's coming off too, I pull the oil pump gear, and inspect the seals.. they look OK, but they are getting replaced. So, now for a seal and gasket kit, and I'll let you know what happens next :)
I'm going to hold off on changing the rings on the mag piston.. I've got them, but I want to see what happens after the new seals are in. Will the compression come up to equal the clutch side 150 psi, or stay at 120? I'm really hoping it comes up!!
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Crank seals won't raise the compression. It should run with new seals, but the compression will most likely stay the same
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I didn't think the seals would raise the compression. So now I'm wondering how to prep the cylinder walls for the new rings? A light sand maybe, with something like 220 or 400 grit? Or can chrome liners get a light hone? Or do I do nothing? The pistons both look great on the exhaust side, there are some marks on the intake side. I guess running it without an airbox or filter has let some stuff in to score the pistons.
Even if I don't swap the rings out, at 120 and 150 psi, it's higher than what I've got in my SRV (100 each side), and that runs not too bad.
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Clean the surfaces whee the seal sits real good, and use a bit of sealer around the outside of the seals. Clean the crank were the seal sits too, and coat with grease on the crank, and pack the back side of the seals with grease. That will help protect the seals if the motor gets flooded, and the grease will lubricate the crank until the oil gets to it on dry startups.
I have had a few sleds that wouldn't start and it often is the crank seals, even when they were replaced.
Your compression may get better after you put a few miles on it, If the rings are run for awhile, they will wear to match the cylinder so see how it goes.
As I have said before, Crank seals, Crank seals, Crank seals.... welcome to the club!
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I don't think this sled was run much after it was torn down, and the drifter jugs put on. The tops of the pistons are pretty clean, so are the exhaust ports. Maybe the seal was bad, they didn't notice, and gave up on it when it wouldn't start or run. Maybe after I get it running with the seals replaced the rings will seat better. Or the seal could have torn after they got it together, and they gave up. Who knows, I'm not giving up on it!!!
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Got the seal and gasket kit today, I'll have it together and back in the sled on the weekend. Crossing my fingers it starts, and I get to take it for a run!!
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So I ran into a snag.. while I had the engine apart, I figured I'd change out the rings on the side with low compression. I found that the person who worked on this before, was not a mechanic!! After I pulled the jug off, I found the remains of a piston pin circlip sitting on top of the crank. They must have dropped it, and not bothered to go and get it!!
There were still 2 clips in the piston, so after they dropped one, they just installed another. Great!! You can see the damage it's done to the piston. The cylinder is damaged about 3/8" up from the center transfer port only, so it shouldn't really influence the compression. I sanded down the high spots left on the piston from the groove, and dropped the new rings on. I had to take a dremel to smooth down the inside of the wall around the groove in the cylinder. It's only about 1/4" square, right above the transfer port. It's not the right way to do this, but I just want to get it running this year while the snow is here. I'll try and find a new jug and piston later.
The 2nd pic is what the clip looks like after I fished it out
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Ouch!! It is amazing what people do to these sleds. I found a crankcase that had a hole in it and was patched with JB Weld,and lots of mis-matched pistons/jugs, messed up carbs, all kinds of stuff. Hope it works for you. (I'd give it a try)
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So I have to ask, would people do this to their cars? No, but when the sleds quit running, it's the sleds fault!!! Idjits!! The motor is going back in the sled on Friday, and I hope to have some good results. I've still got lots of snow on the ground :)
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I just realized I haven't updated this recently. Sorry, got busy with stuff. Got the engine bolted back in, and it took some doing, but I got her running :)
I need to find a non-econo jet carb, because mine isn't working right without an airbox. Other than that, it's running pretty good. Best top end is 55 mph on the lake, again that's because of the carb. The suspension was seized solid, and the seat was frozen, so it was a pretty rough first few rides.
The seat's been thawing for a week now, and should be pretty much drained of water. It's in my bathtub at the cottage.
For suspension, the front K arm is pretty rotten, and the shock is seized solid!! I did get some welding done to the frame, it, to brace it up, but I came up with a better idea instead of just re-building the original. I have a complete Yammi SRV skid in good shape, that I compared to the Kawi.. close fit!
I made a new rear pivot shaft, needed 'cause the Kawi tunnel is wider, and the Yammi axle is a bigger diameter. The front Kawi shaft will work, it's a bit smaller in dia. than the Yammi one, but it will work. The front axle is in the same position on both skids, I have to move the rear axle ahead a couple of inches.. some new 16 gauge tunnel supports will hold the new axle in position.
Hopefully, I should have the new skid in place on the weekend, and maybe a new carb for it too. Then I can feel how it rides when the suspension works, and the seat isn't a block of ice!!
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I have the carb in hand, it's a VM 34. I've got a 340 main jet installed, and it will be going in on the weekend, along with the new skid. We've got another 4 inches of fresh snow, and I'm hoping to see what the Intruder has in her now.
:)
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The SRV skid is in, and it makes a big difference in ride quality and handling. And I got the new carb installed, and it woke the old girl up. It still needs some fine tuning for a good midrange response, but it idles and runs good wide open.Here's some pics of the Yamaha skid installed on the Intruder, and the last pic shows the new top speed I got out of her on Sunday. Previous best speed with the econo-jet carb was 56 mph.
I'm going out tomorrow and buying a 78 Intruder 440.. this one is complete, and has the Intruder jugs, twin carbs, and an airbox. I'm interested to see how it compares to the 80 with the Drifter jugs and single carb.....