KawasakiTrax Community
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: IraqvetUSMC on April 16, 2015, 10:00:41 AM
-
So I had an issue with the invader over the winter stalling out on me and had to much oil in the left jug. I let the sled sit for a couple months and I got around to starting it the other day and after running it for a minute it had oil all over the left jug spark plug. The right jug spark plug was clean. Both throttle cables and oil injection pump lever seem to actuate at the same time and be in sync. Any ideas?
-
A bad check valve?
Been there before........
-
Pop the belt guard out of the way and remove the drive belt so you can clearly see the oil injection pump. There are 3 outlet tubes coming out of the oil pump....1 goes down low to the center of the crankcase, and the other 2 go to each cylinder.
You should see 2 outlets coming right from the top of the pump...The 3rd one is down on the side.
Of those 2 coming straight up out of the pump, the one closest to the motor should go to the low fitting at the center of the crankcase. This outlet puts out twice as much oil as the other 2. That specific outlet is designed to send oil to the center crank bearings.
If it is incorrectly connected to the left cylinder.....there's ur Sign ;) ;)
It's entirely possible some previous owner has messed something up......no, could never happen! There are 3 identical Banjo fittings that the oil outlet tubes hook up to where they attach to each cylinder and the crankcase. They have a tiny ball check valve in them, and a very slender tube that controls oil flow. Maybe someone has hacked one of them up.
You could flip/flop the banjo fittings for the left and right cylinders to see if the problem moves to the right side. Those banjo fittings are probably pretty cheap on eBay, or a search on this site will show they are still available a few places.
Lastly, it's easy to mistake too much fuel as being an over oiling problem....The plug will be wet and oily.
If all checks OK with the oil injection system, look closely at the carb floats to be moving on their pins very freely, and that the needle and seat are not leaking by, and the float height is set correctly....whew...that's plenty to think about for now. 8)
-
Perhaps this will help explain the oil pump fittings.
http://www.gothotrocks.com/manuals/oillines/oillines.htm
-
Wow, perfect illustration Boomologist. I knew I had seen something similar on this site or over on the John Deere site, JDsleds.com. A couple quick searches....I didn't find anything. Much clearer illustration than what's in the service manual.
IraqvetUSMC, my memory had failed me a lil bit over the years....go figure ???
The attachment points of the 3 oil tubes to the 2 cylinders and the crankcase are actually 2 vital components. The brass colored check valve, and the bolt which holds it in place. That bolt actually is extremely specialized and has the nozzle that distributes the oil flow.
As 5Kaws mentioned, that check valve can fail. And, did someone switch the bolts in previous years?
I think you are planning on pulling the motor to change the crank seals, so this should be easy to check. You really should do that this summer.
Remember my "towel rule". Always put a big towel beneath the motor when you're working on something like this with the motor in the sled. Murphy, of " Murphy's Law" fame, is my lifelong, mortal enemy. :(
WHY is it, if I'm in a hurry and don't put a towel below the stuff, I inevitably drop something down into the belly pan?
If I do put a towel underneath what I'm working on, I NEVER drop anything!
That's Murphy at his best.... 8) :o
-
Also, if memory is correct, the nozzle for the center seal is different than the nozzles for the cylinders. The one for the center seal allows more flow than the others.
-
Sorry so late. Thanks guys I will check this out and get back to you. I appreciate the help. And where would the check valve be located at? Sorry for my ignorance haha.
-
Sorry missed where the check valves are at, duh haha. The info you guys have sent me makes perfect sense. This whole issue of over oiling & causing my sled to die out occurred while I was climbing a really steep hill coming off of the ice. I think it could be possible that a check valve is hanging up. I am or should I say was using 5 year or older 2 stroke oil in the reservoir so it may be a little gummy haha. But I really appreciate all the help from you guys. Yes I do plan on changing the crank seals this summer. I was looking at my sled the other night and this engine looks like a PITA to pull out. I am sure everything is rusted up. Are these engine a pain to pull? Thanks
-
No, they're not too bad to pull. The first thing you need to round up is a drive clutch puller. Check mfgsupply or Dennis Kirk, or maybe on eBay for the best price.
Once you get the drive clutch off, the motor comes out pretty easily.
The motors on these were assembled in Japan, so everything on the motor is metric, so metric wrenches, or sockets, and Allen wrenches.
The next pain will be removing the flywheel. If you don't have any kind of puller, maybe a local shop or motorsports dealer would remove it for cheap.
Most everything from there on is pretty straightforward.
One more thing to buy, borrow, or whatever, is a torque wrench. You don't need a fancy, expensive digital one. I have used the old beam type torque wrench forever.
While I have put lots of stuff together over the years just cranking down "that feels tight enough"...a motor that's gonna spin to 8000 RPM is a lot more important to torque down correctly.
I know you're on a budget, so perhaps a neighbor, co-worker might have one you could borrow when you're ready to put the motor back together.
Just think how much fun if you get the old girl back together and running great, and we get LOTTSA snow next winter! 8)
-
Since I have never worked on a sled before and I found on vintagesnow.com that they have a free service manual for a 78 Invader 340, would I be able to use this manual for the procedure of removing the drive clutch? I do have some 2 & 3 finger pullers at work that I could use for the flywheel. Would they work on the drive clutch or is that special? I do agree that torque specs on a high rpm motor are must or bad things will happen lol. I am a little OCD in the clean dept lol which is why I want to pull the engine and clean out the belly pan and spray the hardware with PB blaster to loosen everything up. I am sure I will be drilling and tapping some bolt holes. I would like to install a gasket where the expansion chamber meets the head because someone has used red silicone as a sealer and I do not like that at all. I also plan on going through the carbs. You are right I may be thinking this is an over oiling issue from the oil pump when it could actually be a carb related issue where its running way to rich in one cylinder and fouling out the plug. I got the sled for free and I think the invaders actually look kind of cool. If the sled hood design wasn't as cool looking I don't know if I would consider putting any time and effort into it and actually invest in something like a ZR600 haha. But their is something about this sled that makes me want to clean it up and maybe find a new hood and keep it for a long time. I hope we get lots of snow as well and it stays cold all winter so I can ride on the lakes that we have around us.
-
Outstanding...not too many sleds out there that are cooler looking than an Invader...still today.
Yep, you gotta have the proper drive clutch puller to get that thing off....I don't know any other way to do it without breaking stuff. ;)
I would be happy to send my puller in the mail to you if you pay the postage to send it back. I don't need it all summer. Send me a PM with your address. The least I could do for a fellow "Hoosier" and an ex Marine vet. :)
There are a couple tricks to help ease the process of popping the drive clutch off, when you get to that point...let us know.
-
That would be awsome and I appreciate your kindness. What part of indiana are you from? now I am assuming that it's impossible to change the crank seals without pulling the engine? Can the clutch drive come out as a whole unit. I would really hate to break it and have to find a new drive. When I get a chance this summer I will send you a message if I can't find a puller online or at the local sled shop. Just a little info on my miiitary background, I was in the core from 2004-2008 and served 2 tours in Fallujah Iraq, once in 05 and the other in 07. I was a M1A1 tank mechanic. If I see what this puller looks like I may be able to rig one up. Everyone on the forum makes it seem like the seals are not bad to change and they never mention a special puller.
-
First off, Thank you for your service Iraqvet!! Here is a link for a clutch puller.
https://www.denniskirk.com/parts-unlimited/clutch-puller-kawasaki.p28146.prd/28146.sku
How'd that seat ever turn out??
-
Your welcome bud. And I really haven't had a chance to do the seat cover yet. I am trying to get some time but I work a lot an have a baby at home so free time is hard to come by lol. I'm just gonna use a heat gun to heat the plastic up to get the staples through and if that don't work or looks horrible I may spend the money and have the local upholstery guy do it for me and cut and sew it right.
-
What part of indiana are you from?
The big town of Delphi....pop. around 3000. About 20 miles Northeast of Lafayette. 8)
-
That's not to far from me. I live in lowell, the town just south of crown point. Are their any signs that I could look for for the crank seals being bad? With a baby and all I am not sure if I will have the time this summer to tear out the engine. I would like to get the carbs cleaned and rebuilt atleast and check the check valves for my over oil issue. I work a lot so bit much free time here lol.
-
....crank seals...yeah, you can rig up some rubber gasket material to fit between the exhaust y-pipe and the motor, and do the same on the intake side by putting a solid rubber gasket between the carb boots and the motor to seal up the motor completely. Then you can put air pressure to the innards of the motor...up to only 5 or 6 psi....and see if the pressure holds for a couple minutes. But it's almost certain that those seals are pretty "iffy" and you risk sucking air through one of them and seizing a piston.
Probably as important to the sled running reliably as cleaning the carbs and putting gas in the tank. :(
But, look at the bright side, if you replace them now, the crank seals should be good for several years.
-
I definitely know what you mean about just getting them changed now and being done with it, id really hate to run lean & burn up a piston. Realistically how long should it take to pull the engine, r&r seals & reinstall?
-
IDEALLY, if you had a compression tester, you could check to see if both cylinders had compression within 10 percent (or less)of each other, then you could assume the pistons and cylinders are in pretty good shape. If it ran pretty well during the time you got to ride it last winter, they are probably good to go. IDEALLY, you could install 2 new pistons while the motor is out, but that's gonna add $100 bucks to the project and another 3 or 4 hours time.
Removing the motor for the 1st time, allow a couple hours. Then, the battle to remove the flywheel begins.
If your pistons and cylinders are OK, and you are just replacing the crank seals, you can lay the motor on a workbench with the cylinder heads down. Then you can just remove the the bolts from the bottom of the motor that hold the crankcase halves together. Then you can get to the crankshaft with the seals on each end. There is a pressed on gear on one end of the crank that you gotta remove to replace the seal on that end.
You have to clean everything up well, particularly the two mating halves of the crankcase, which will get sealed back together with some Yamabond or ThreeBond 1184 sealant....don't use regular silicone. I'm sure if you entered "crankcase sealant" in the search part of this site, you will find some other good sealants.....I can't remember their names. I have always used the ThreeBond stuff, with good luck. It used to be called ThreeBond 1194, but the new, environmentally friendlier formula ::) ??? is now called 1184.
All told, it would be a pretty good 8 hour day for someone that is doing it the first time. And that's if you don't have to fight too long removing the drive clutch, the flywheel, or the crankshaft gear.
But, break it up into segments. Remove the motor one day. Tear it apart to change the seals another, and install it whenever you get a couple hours.....
Take your time...you will probably have questions as you work through this. :)
-
Another good thing, once the motor is out, the carbs are removed, the exhaust y-pipe is removed...you can look into the intake and exhaust ports and see the pistons and parts of the cylinders. You can tell if they are all scuffed up, or still look pretty good.
-
OR...if you have a way to haul the Invader....plan a trip to Delphi sometime this summer. I have 4 WEEKS vacation saved up....I intend to take 1 in late May, 1 in June, one in July...another....whenever.. :D.
I have everything on hand to tear into this.
I plan on spending LOTTSA time on the lake with my kids and the boat and jet skis....but I would be happy to spend a day helpin'.... 8).
The only out of pocket cost, other than the new crank seals, and the gas to get here and back, would be (most importantly) a cold 12 pack when we're done... ::)
-
doing the "seal the motor and pump it up test" will tell if the seals are shot, but it also is kind of a backwards way of testing it. You want to be able to see if the motor is PULLING air into the motor, and pressurizing it will tell if it is leaking out. (kind of backwards) so it may pass the test, but still have bad seals.
I can pull a motor, reseal it and have it back in on a long saturday, but I usually spend a day to get it apart, and resealed, and a second day cleaning up the chassis, lubricating everything under the motor, replacing fuel lines, etc before putting the motor back in place. Perfect time to get things right with the motor out.
-
Sorry this is so late rminier and jim. I have been so busy lately and just got around to getting my sled to my house from my friends house last weekend and I am just getting into tinkering with it now. I do really appreciate your kindness on helping me with this old girl and going as far as wanting to help me personally term into this thing. Since I got such a late start I am not sure I want to change the seals this summer. I am hoping to clean it all up and clean out the carbs and check the little ball check valves for any issues. Speaking of cleaning, I would really like to clean the engine and pan as best I could with gunk without removing the engine since its all oily, dirty and some debris in it. Unfortunately their is no access panel to drop but on the right side their is a hole. How have you guys in the past cleaned this out with out tilting it on its side to let everything drain out? Will it just wash out that hole? And i tried a electric staple gun on my homemade seat cover and ya right lol the staples just hit that hard plastic and flew across the room haha. I was thinking of heating the plastic to soften it up a bit.
-
I have used a variety of things to clean out the belly pans...Formula 409 spray, something I think was called "purple power" degreaser from NAPA worked well to cut through grease....sometimes just hot, soapy water if it's not too bad.
Usually the water just runs out of the area beneath the motor..sometimes kinda slowly, but there are enough small gaps around rivets, seams, etc. that allow the water to drain.
-
So I went to town with about 2 cans of gunk and a pressure washer on the sled and had it tilted sideways. That cleaned it out pretty good lol. Just need to get this thing running right I installed new seals in carb float bowel and drain plugs as the plug seals were blown out and both plugs were loose. Its almost like the sled doesn't want to stay running and you have to keep playing with the throttle. It doesn't want to sit at an idle. I have spark, air (open) now lol and I believe fuel as the carbs are full of fuel. Im starting to wonder if I have a compression issue or bad rings. Do you know what the compression calls for?
Thanks
-
Hey, how are you doin' young man?
The compression you should have...depending on the variability of various compression gauges...(cheap Chinese or Bangladeshian) ought to be somewhere from 120 to 140. It is more important that the difference between the 2 cylinders is less than 10 percent.
Apparently, you have it running...so, a couple comments...
It is tough to get these motors to always idle perfectly. They are much more high strung than a new Chevy Impala. I have had times with my various sleds when I have had everything dialed in perfectly, apparently, and I could warm them up and go watch an NFL game on TV, and come back to find them idling perfectly....obviously, you can't do that because they will quickly overheat. Other times, I have everything set pretty close, but still need to blip the throttle occasionally when the idle speed tends to fall back.
The air screws on the side of the carb are very important. They are the ones that the head is about a 1/4 diameter and uses a straight blade screwdriver. They are normally set about 1 1/2 or 2 turns open from the lightly seated position.
Unfortunately, trying to adjust these during an 80 degree August day will result in a much different setting than you would need in winter when it's 20 degrees....hot air is so much less dense than cold air....you may have to open them up 2 1/2 turns, or more, to get the best idle in warm weather.
Never expect these engines to always idle as perfectly as a new fuel injected, computer controlled car.
It's important to try and keep these screws adjusted nearly the same between the 2 carbs.
Unfortunately for you, us old farts on here are gonna continue to beat you up about the rubber crank seals, and the likelihood that they have deteriorated over the years and are no longer creating a perfect, air tight seal.
And, take a close look at the rubber carb boots, to make sure they don't have any cracks that could leak air into the motor.
Keep gettin' that Invader ready....and think SNOW!!!
Rick
-
If you have less than 100 psi, you will have troubles. Ideally you want about 150 or better, and the cylinders should be within 10% of each other. The normal is around 120-130 for a good sled. Also a compression check will tell you NOTHING about the crank seals.
You want to block the carbs wide open and pull over the sled until the compression gauge tops out for a good reading. Best to do a cold reading and then a hot reading (warm the motor up )
Another quick shot from an old guy about crank seals, checking them with the air pressure test will tell if they might leak with the motor cold, they usually fail once the motor warms up and you are doing top speed across a lake. That way you are sure to melt a piston and cylinder before you can stop the motor.
Crank Seals, Crank Seals, Crank Seals.... I have said enough.
-
Hi Rick
I am doing fine. A few months back I bought an older dirt bike to start riding motocross again to get in shape. I rode MX as kid for a long time and haven't rode in 13 years so I got a bug up my A$$ to start riding again and in a couple years I am going to get a bike for my son so we can ride together. I rode yesterday and this morning I feel like I got hit by a semi lol. I am deff not 15 anymore, I used to be able to ride for hours as a kid only stoping for gas, food and drinks not because I was all worn out. Now I know why my dad would ride for a half hour and then crack open a beer. Getting old sucks lol. You made a valid point with the air screws on the carb and the hot weather outside. From day one the sled would idle fine even after the whole hill climb ordeal that started this issue once it got it started again it would idle fine. I think since I set the air screw to factory settings in this 80 weather that messed it up. Once I chop the throttle and play with it I can get the sled to run great wide open with the track suspended in the air. I believe I have the seals, they are made by Winderosa and the part # is GS1149. Im just worried about fighting 40 years of rusted bolts lol.
-
Read back through a couple of these posts. Sounds like the crank seals have not been changed. If that is the case, there is probably no benefit in doing any fine tuning. As far as idling, when you go to put it back together, make sure that all of the pilot jet passages are thoroughly cleaned and the "moat" in the needle jet has been cleaned of gunk. The moat shows in the attached photos. There is an air passage at the base of the moat that helps to mist fuel into the carb at idle. And I will add that I recently sold a perfectly good sled because I needed the space, and I couldn't get it to idle. New owner changed the carbs and was back in business. Even though I had new pilot jets, something must have been up. So, if you do everything else right and she still won't idle, it might be time to change the pilot jets again - and/or swap in a pair of carbs from a running sled.
-
I definitely think that its my carbs now. That day that my sled died out on me and i couldn't keep it running once i got it running i never pulled off the second carb to inspect. When i cleaned the sled the other day I had removed both carbs and then reinstalled them without taking them apart. When I tried to start the sled after filling it with fresh fuel it ran shortly and died thats when i noticed underneath the puddle of fuel. I removed both carbs and found the float bowl plug on the inside carb was very loose and had a blown o-ring, i am assuming it came loose that day and was sucking air and thats probably what caused the initial problem and since the sled was oily underneath and snowy i didn't realize the fuel spill from the get go. I noticed that left jug was full of oil and the right jug was dry without a spec of oil on the spark plug. Now the book calls to seat the idle stop screw and back off 6 complete turns and the air screw 1.5 turns from seat. But like Rick said this isn't the correct setting for 80 outside. To test this theory should i turn the idle stop screw only 3 turns from seat and what about the air screw? Also i noticed it a little wet with fuel around the rubber intake where the carb slides in which could be from not being adjusted properly.
-
Hi Rick
I am doing fine. A few months back I bought an older dirt bike to start riding motocross again to get in shape. I rode MX as kid for a long time and haven't rode in 13 years so I got a bug up my A$$ to start riding again and in a couple years I am going to get a bike for my son so we can ride together. I rode yesterday and this morning I feel like I got hit by a semi lol. I am deff not 15 anymore, I used to be able to ride for hours as a kid only stoping for gas, food and drinks not because I was all worn out. Now I know why my dad would ride for a half hour and then crack open a beer. Getting old sucks lol. You made a valid point with the air screws on the carb and the hot weather outside. From day one the sled would idle fine even after the whole hill climb ordeal that started this issue once it got it started again it would idle fine. I think since I set the air screw to factory settings in this 80 weather that messed it up. Once I chop the throttle and play with it I can get the sled to run great wide open with the track suspended in the air. I believe I have the seals, they are made by Winderosa and the part # is GS1149. Im just worried about fighting 40 years of rusted bolts lol.
Getting old sucks lol? WAIT until your 61 like me! ;D ;D
The Company I work for had the annual golf outing yesterday...I played with my youngest son and 2 other guys from work....'bout killed me to play 18 holes....the old back muscles tend to tighten up quite a bit any more... :(
I doubt that you need to change the idle SPEED screws when you play with it during summer weather....just the air screws probably need opened up to 2 or 2 /1/2 turns open to compensate for the thinner, hot air.
-
I failed to mention...as if you need any more reminding. ;D..a very common symptom of a leaking crank seal is a sled doesn't want to idle as smoothly as it should, even with everything else correct.. Once it revs up, it will often sound and run great, until you are flying across a frozen lake and pistons start melting.
I fear that the seals, particularly the MAG end, hidden behind the recoil and the flywheel, probably looks like 35 year old, petrified, piece of burned toast. ???
Many good comments on here previously, also, to check thru on the carbs to make sure you have them dialed in.
I don't think you will have much trouble with rusted nuts and bolts when you go to remove the engine....The drive clutch and flywheel will be the pain.
-
A picture is worth a thousand words....I thought I may have saved this crank seal from a parts sled (79 440 Invader) I picked up in 2010...that had probably sat in a barn for 20 years.
The outward facing part of the seal doesn't look too terrible...this one was on the MAG end...but check out the inner portion facing in toward the center of the motor!!
It was bad enough that moisture had pitted the seal mating surface of the crank and slightly affected the end bearing of the crank, which isn't a terrible deal....but one reason I am closely following mswyka's thread about the Speedi sleeve on here to address the pitting on the crank without spending a small fortune on machine work.
Pics taken in my garage on the seat of my fairly new to me Blizzard 9500, which has been getting an end to end clean up and check of everything this summer....gettin' close to finished with it...May have to post some pics under the "what have you been working on?" topic, soon.. 8)
-
Whoops, could only post 1 at a time?
Inner view.
-
Outward facing view of original seal.
-
Man that crank seal sure looks nasty and I can definitely see where the pitting on the crank came from, I really hope mine does not look like that but I am sure they are close to that. I just don't think i will have the time this winter to tear apart the engine which really isn't a smart idea if I want to ride lol. I will maybe make that a spring project that way I have all summer long to work on it. Realistically I probably won't ride it to much this winter and I need to cover that seat, I am dreading it haha. After the sled died on me and I was finally able to get it to start again it would sit there and idle perfectly but when i decided to take it back out to see if it miraculously fixed it self it died out after about 3 minutes or so under a load on the snow on the ice. Im still thinking the right carb bowel plug came loose and caused the initial problem ( i hope). If the air screw adjustment doesn't work then its either the carbs which i have cleaned out or those seals and I may not get any riding time this winter :(. I do appreciate all your guidance and yes getting old really blows lol. Im still sore from riding on Saturday lol.
-
Update. I have adjusted the idle stop screw about 1.5 turns off the seat and the air screw about 2.5 turns off the seat and the sled seems to idle now without dieing out. It will idle much better but every once in awhile you have to blip the throttle. I am wondering if these old 2 stroke sleds tend to load up much faster with the oil injection system vs a new 2 stroke sled with newer carbs and technology. The sled fires now on the first pull without using the choke.
-
Crank seals are not too expensive, I would never use a salvaged seal!! Balancing the carbs makes a huge difference in power and speed. There is a simple balancing tool you can make from some clear tubing a scrap of wood, and a ruler that makes balancing super easy without spending a bunch of money on a fancy tool.
http://snowmobile.off-road.com/snowmobile/tech/round-slide-carburetor-synchronization-how-to-20201.html
But i'd say to replace those seals and then you don't have to worry about hem any more. While you are in there, grease up the lower steering post bushing.The motor has to be out to get to it so it is a good time to take care of it when you do the crank seals.
-
Thanks for the advice Jim. I will have to check that out and get them crank seals changed. I have new ones still in the packaging just not enough time right now lol.
-
How many times have I said that!! I spent almost a year messing with an Invader that I got and the previous owner swore up and down that he just put crank seals in. eventually I pulled the motor and found the flywheel crank seal ripped apart. He put them in on a dry crankshaft and they tore right away. Lesson learned, pack them with grease, and only trust your own work. (grease also helps protect them if the motor gets flooded)
-
I "know" everyone has mentioned crank seals and yes its a big issue but when you have a 1 year old and work 50 hrs plus a week while trying to get other stuff done its a little hard and it will be a spring summer project next year. I will ride my sled a little bit with the crank seals the way they are and worry about it next year. Even if it snows I may not even have much time to ride it which is why I haven't jumped all over doing these seals. However I am glad you mentioned grease otherwise I may not have used grease on the shaft and would be in the same boat as your invader.
-
Riding a 30+ year old sled without changing the seals is a risk, but it is your risk to take. I hope it works out for the best. Good luck!
-
Don't do it. It is a long, sad walk home in the cold when the engine blows a piston. Been there, done that, won't ever do it again. Better not to ride than to suffer the shame of being towed home by a (choose one) [skidoo, arctic cat, polaris, yamaha, boaski, bolens, john deere, ariens, gilson, ford, chevy, dodge, porsche, kia, yugo, other...] Remember, friends don't let friends blow pistons.
-
Haha yes its a big risk and thats why I don't plan on going very far. I have a small field across the street that I could ride in so atleast I wont be miles away from my house lol.