KawasakiTrax Community
Site News => Discussion & Help => Topic started by: freak_in_cage on January 27, 2016, 12:28:18 PM
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First off, I want to say that prior to registering I have found this site to be a great wealth of information. Now that I have registered, I am going to tell you what I have, what I have done, what I plan to do and ask for input from those who have been where I am.
A little history:
I recently brought home a 1980 Invader 440 with 1746 miles on it. I am the third owner. I don't have any history on it from first owner. My father in law was the second and he didn't really use it. Now I have it. This sled has sat in the barn and hasn't really been run much in the last 18 years. My wife and I got together in 1997 and this sled has only moved, if I moved it. I took it for a small spin about 8 years ago. It was a pain to start, but when it finally did it ran good. Overall the sled is in decent condition, with the exception of the seat that needs to be recovered and a cracked windshield. I'm sure I will find more as I go through this.
What I've done so far:
So far I haven't really done much, but what I have done I feel is necessary. I've acquired a service & parts manual, trimmed the plug wires, crimped on new ends, replaced the plug boots, replaced the plugs, replaced all the fuel and oil lines, cleaned the carbs and have done a compression test (145psi on the PTO side & 140psi on the mag side). When I got it, the entire fuel system was completely dry. The carbs were actually quite clean with nothing plugged and hardly any varnish. I replaced one missing o-ring on the mag side carb. I used the closest size I could find, but I think its too small and is contributing to some problems I'm having. Today I ordered a 100 pack of o-rings from McMaster-Carr (pn# 9464k12). They should be here tomorrow and I will replace them on both carbs. I could not find any locally with all the different part numbers I have (Polaris, John Deere, Arctic Cat and of course Kawasaki).
What I know I need to do:
So far all I can think of is that I need to change the crank seals and figure out a flooding issue I'm having. I have had no problem finding the outer crank seals online, but it seems that the only way to get the gear case seal is to order a complete gasket kit...this seems like a waste to me since I am not going to need any of the gaskets. Does any one know where I can get all of these in Canada at a reasonable price?
The current problem I'm having:
Right now from cold, I can choke it, push the primer twice and it will fire on the first or second pull. It will idle decently at around 3000 RPM for about 30 seconds, then it seems to only run on one cylinder. I can restart it and it will run while sputtering and popping, then dies. Eventually it won't start at all. The mag side cylinder is flooding out. Pulling the plugs has confirmed this. The PTO side is a nice cocoa brown and the mag side wet. The mag side is also the side that has the wrong o-ring on the carb. I have pulled the plugs and checked for spark, both sides have a blue spark but the mag side doesn't seem as bright.
This is where I'm at so far. Any advice, tips, opinions, etc. are always welcome. Currently I'm not restoring this sled, but rather am getting it together to just play around on. If it turns out to be something decent and not a complete money pit, I'll be more willing to spend a bit of money. One thing I have never liked is the 80's suspension, this is one upgrade I would love to do if this sled warrants it. I have read of people putting mid 90's Polaris skids in these with little modification. Does anyone know how this is done? Perhaps a link to a "how to" article if you know of one.
Anyway, thanks for reading.
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Welcome to the site!
1. Replace the crank seals (IMO, there is no sense in continuing until this is done)
2. Rebuild the fuel pump
3. Check the needle and seat in the carbs
4. Check the seals on the bottom of the choke plungers.
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Thanks for the welcome.
I do plan on doing the crank seals as soon as I can get a straight answer as to can I order the gear case seal without ordering a complete gasket kit. I would need the mag side, the pto side and the gear case one or is the gear case seal the one refered to as "second seal pto side"? Locally, I can't get any help even from Kawasaki dealers...I am quite unfamiliar with these engines. Someone far more experienced than I would know off hand what the Winderosa part numbers are for these seals.
What would rebuilding the fuel pump do, aside from rebuilding the fuel pump? My personal experience on other motors is a faulty pump results in less or no fuel, how would this situation be different?
Needles and seats are good.
Choke plunger seals are good and the plungers are seating properly.
Thanks for taking the time to help.
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If the diaphragm is bad they can suck fuel into the vacuum pulse line and directly into the crankcase. The original Kawi fuel pump also has a built in check valve that shuts off the fuel when not running to prevent fuel leaking past needle & seats from flooding the engine. I don't know if rebuild kits are available for these pumps but a replacement Mikuni fuel pump can be used with no issues other than it would be a good idea to install a manual fuel shut off valve somewhere inline...
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Not to sound like a dummy, just clarifying. If there is fuel in the line that goes to the crankcase, the pump needs replacing or rebuilding.
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Not to sound like a dummy, just clarifying. If there is fuel in the line that goes to the crankcase, the pump needs replacing or rebuilding.
Welcome to the site!! If you have gas in the pulse line then yes, your fuel pump needs to be looked at. Leaky carb needle seats can also let gas into the crank case which "could" get sucked into the pulse line. If you get the complete gasket set it's much simpler. http://www.mfgsupply.com/711150.html#
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Ordering a complete casket kit may be simpler but inonly need seals and the case is glued together. Ordering stuff I don't need seems like a waste of product and money. I only need the 3 seals and I'm finding it very difficult to find out if I can just purchase the gear case seal on its own. Even when I ask suppliers, they don't know. I just get a link to all the seals they sell. I have been searching for a few days and all I can do is cross reference oem numbers to other oem numbers but not to anything that's in current production. Even the carb o-rings were an issue. I had to buy 100 (when I only need 2) to the tune of $30 Canadian after shipping and exchange because no one seems to know anything about anything if you don't have a part number for something current.
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I can't help on the seal but I would think if you took it out and take it to a place that sells seals they could measure it and match it up with something. I've done that many times with different seals and bearings. I've had best luck at farm implement dealers and stores that specialize in bearings, drives, hydraulics(farm/construction).
As far as the o ring you should be set for a couple winters! LOL!! Here are the part #'s Carb O ring: Kawasaki pn # 92055-044, Arctic Cat pn# 6505-042, John Deere pn# R34812 The John Deere ones are the least expensive.
Good luck on the seal search!!
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Thank you for the part numbers. Those are actually the numbers I used and at my local john Deere, that number isn't in the computer and that's as far as they go to help. The other two are discontinued and that's as far as those places are willing to go. It's maddening. I ended up ordering the pack of 100 from McMaster-Carr. I got the part number from somewhere on this site. At least those I'll have for a lifetime. Haha. Now I just need to get the 3 crank seals before I test any further. Thanks again.
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While I don't call myself an expert, there is something exhilarating about a good running Kawasaki Invader (340 or 440). No doubt you will find that too. And where I call it exhilarating, others flat out call it Mad Kaw disease.
I am with Gix, there is little benefit to troubleshooting until the crank seals are changed. Now, with that said, I have purchased individual seals, and if I get out the garage or into my snowmobile folder I might even be able to find them. It was probably Dennis Kirk or Partzilla but I have to check. Compression at 140 and 145 is good, but it tells me that the pistons and/or jugs are warn, so I would encourage you to get the full gasket set since, once you get the sled running I see a new set of piston rings or pistons in the future. My 440 Invader runs about 160 psi compression today and that engine was rebuilt back in 2005 - and when she sings the song of winter it makes the hair on the back of the neck stand up and makes you want to shout yee-hah.
I just checked both Dennis Kirk and Partzilla. Both offer crank seals separately.
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Thanks for the reply. I thought the compression was actually alright, the service manual specs between 130 & 150...I'll have to look into that.
As far as the seals go, I too have found them on deniskirk, what I am having a problem finding out is which seal is for the gear case specifically. Their stuff is clearly listed for mag side and pto side, but nothing that says gear case. The only thing that comes close is "pto side second seal" or something like that. Is that the gear case seal? If I have to, I'll take the seals out and go someplace to match them up...I should be much more simple than it seems to be. I would prefer to have the seals first so the job only takes an afternoon instead of a couple of days. I'm sure that me being unfamiliar with these motors doesn't help either.
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I bit the bullet and ordered a complete gasket set with seals and should be here in a few days. I'll report back once I have done the seals...or sooner if I need info. Thanks for all the input.
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Thanks for the welcome.
I do plan on doing the crank seals as soon as I can get a straight answer as to can I order the gear case seal without ordering a complete gasket kit. I would need the mag side, the pto side and the gear case one or is the gear case seal the one refered to as "second seal pto side"? Locally, I can't get any help even from Kawasaki dealers...I am quite unfamiliar with these engines. Someone far more experienced than I would know off hand what the Winderosa part numbers are for these seals.
What would rebuilding the fuel pump do, aside from rebuilding the fuel pump? My personal experience on other motors is a faulty pump results in less or no fuel, how would this situation be different?
Needles and seats are good.
Choke plunger seals are good and the plungers are seating properly.
Thanks for taking the time to help.
Aside from the reasons others listed above, I always rebuild the fuel pump on all Kaws that enter my garage. This is preventive maintenance. The fuel pumps are 30+ years old. The diaphragms and and gaskets get tired and tend to fail. It's cheap and easy to do. Why not?
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Seal Numbers from Dennis Kirk:
Oil Cover Seal - #260676
2-piece PTO side seal - #1486
Mag side seal - #14205
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Aside from the reasons others listed above, I always rebuild the fuel pump on all Kaws that enter my garage. This is preventive maintenance. The fuel pumps are 30+ years old. The diaphragms and and gaskets get tired and tend to fail. It's cheap and easy to do. Why not?
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There are a number of kits I see all over the net, which one do I want? I know its a DF52 pump. Is there a kit that allows for the original fuel shut off or will I need to put in an in line one?
EDIT:
These are the two kits I've found. Which one do I want?
https://www.canadasmotorcycle.ca/winderosa-round-single-fuel-pump-451448.html
https://www.canadasmotorcycle.ca/winderosa-round-fuel-pump-repair-kit-451453.html
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You want this one but when you take the pump apart be aware you will need to add 1 hole to make it work.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2060353.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xkawasaki+snowmobile+fuel+pump+kit.TRS5&_nkw=kawasaki+snowmobile+fuel+pump+kit&_sacat=0
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Sorry but the page gave a whole list of stuff. You're meaning the LLP 07-417?
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Yes the LLP 07-417 will work. But like 398 said make sure you punch the one hole where it needs to be. I just did one month ago. Wish I had the pics still to show you.
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What about the other Winderosa ones I linked? Do I just have to add a shut off valve with those or is there something else? Thanks in advance.
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The ones you linked to will not fit the Kawasaki pump. Check the compatibility link in the add.
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I did see the compatibility link, but wanted 100% confirmation from someone...also, I thought I read or head that Polaris used a similar pump. I will have to get one of those LLP kits. Thanks.
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One other thing. Can someone tell me how to install a toggle switch to bypass the key? The ignition cylinder is seized in the run/lights position and looks terrible.
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A new ignition switch is about 16 bucks plus shipping from denniskirk.com. Part # 20-211.
A local auto store would probably have them, too. Basically the same switches John Deere or Cub Cadet garden tractors use....almost a "universal" key switch.
You can use a 2 position toggle switch, with 2 spade terminals and have RUN or OFF....but you would never have a brake light. :(
On a 2 spade toggle switch, hook the gray magneto wire that goes to terminal M on your current keyswitch to the top terminal, and the black ground wire (G terminal on your current keyswitch) to the bottom terminal.
Toggle switch up to run, switch down for off.
You could splice the 2 wires together that go to the "L" terminal on your current key switch and regain the function of your brake light....one of the wires should be a red/yellow wire and the other a yellow/red wire. Surprisingly, splicing those wires together that go to the brake lever switch also lights up the Tachometer light (all the time)....but that is the only light that would be on.
To have the ability to switch from "off" to "run" (which includes the brake light always ready to function) to "run with all lights" would require a 3 position toggle switch with 3 spade terminals....plus you would have to splice together several wires to make it function properly.
I could describe what that would require if you wish.....but a $15 new switch sounds better and better. ;)
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Thanks for the key info. Being in Canada, the shipping on everything is the killer. I'll have to look at my local John Deere and see what they have. Thanks.
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Royal Distributing has switches. They are in Ontario, But ship world wide www.royaldistributing.com
Any snowmobile shop can get you a switch that will work
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Hang in the cage guy, we are getting close to you having to hanging on for your life!!!!! :D
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Well, I've ordered all the parts I feel I need to get it running properly (complete engine gasket kit with seals, fuel pump rebuild kit, o-rings for the carbs and a clutch puller). Once everything gets here, I can start the tear down. I'm going to leave the top end alone for now as I feels 140 & 145 psi compression is alright, since the manual I have for the motor says 130 to 150 psi and I'm right in the middle. I may also have a line on a new windshield locally as mine is cracked.
My plan isn't to restore this thing to factory showroom condition, but rather have it be a reliable sled I can play around on. Having said that, I am toying with the idea of putting a newer skid under it for a more comfortable ride. I have read of people putting mid 90's Polaris Indy skids in these with little modification, but I haven't been able to find info on the modifications required. What is really all involved in this swap? Have any of you done it? Do you have any pictures or measurements? What models and years of sleds are good donors? I figure that if this is a swap I'm going to do, I should probably do it while the sled is already ripped apart.
I apologize in advance to the purists that have prayed to the Kawasaki gods for forgiveness on my behalf. ;D