KawasakiTrax Community
Tech Information => General Help => Topic started by: tool13x on February 16, 2015, 09:39:22 PM
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I just wanted some feedback on cylinder honing. I have to replace the piston rings on my 1980 invader 440. The sled was showing low compression in the pto cylinder and the piston looks fine as well as the cylinder wall. I just wanted to make sure there isn't a coating on the cylinder walls before I hone them. I know most modern sleds have a nikasil coating so honing them would be a problem but I believe these old Kawis are good to go? Right?
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Invader cylinders are either nicasil or chrome. NO heavy honing.
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Llyod is correct, Invader cylinders are chrome. Unless they have been sleeved.
I've had good luck with a very light honing of chrome cylinders.
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Whew, good thing I checked. Even a light honing on coated cylinder walls makes me a little nervous, should I even bother doing it at all?
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That depends...just my 2 cents. If the chrome bore looks virtually flawless, don't bother. You can use 1000 grit sandpaper, oil it up well with some 2 stroke (or plain ol' 30 weight) oil, and LIGHTLY touch up any small, scratched or scuffed up areas. Any imperfections that will catch a fingernail may require re-chroming of the cylinder.
You don't want to try and "cross hatch" the cylinder, like you would with a traditional steel bore, but a little touch up of some less than perfect spots won't hurt.
Probably the best thing is to use a flex-hone (with the little balls) :-\ to run up and down a FEW times (well oiled) through the cylinder, but you have to have the correct size to fit the cylinder. They aren't terribly expensive...but kind of a luxury.
Use your judgement...a little touch up with the fine sandpaper doesn't hurt...just remember your not trying to cross hatch or remove any of the chrome.
Clean the cylinder spotlessly when you're done before you install new piston, and have at it.
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I have used a stone hone and have taken out light scoring. I use lots of kerosene to lube and clean the stone.
Should you hone your Cyliners? It's like the old saying; If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
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There was a chemical that you could wipe on the cylinder to remove any buildup of shellack and leave the chrome as is.
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My thoughts are that "generally" honing is used to help seat the rings (crosshatch). I have also read that the cross hatch "pattern" effects ring set.
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Just curious how they seat the rings at the factory. I have nos cylinders that show no sign of honing.
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Maybe we should track down Yaki Makatuna and ask him. LOL
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Muriatic Acid to remove aluminum deposit in cylinder bore(s).
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I always hone a used steel bore. The only time I have honed a chrome cylinder was to smooth out some of the light scoring. I always leave around a 60 degree cross hatch. If the cylinder looks good, I don't hone it. The one Invader I built had a good used un-honed cylinder, and a good used cylinder that I honed. I have since put over 900 miles on that engine with zero problems. Both cylinders have 140psi of compression.
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Agree.
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My thoughts are that "generally" honing is used to help seat the rings (crosshatch). I have also read that the cross hatch "pattern" effects ring set.
I agree, its always been my understanding that crosshatching is not only for helping oil retention on the cylinder walls but also helps wear the rings down and seats them to the cylinders. Which is why early break-in procedures are critical to a new/newly rebuilt engine.
That being said, after a few Google searches it seems that the general consensus is not to hone chromed/nikasil cylinder walls. It also appears that a regular stone will not hone nikasil anyways because it is to hard, you most likely need a professional diamond tool to do it.
The great majority have spoken, no honing shall be done. It looks like a light hone might be done as a last resort if there are minor imperfections as has been suggested in the above posts. But I suspect the proper procedure is to have them bored and recoated for any major scarring. A friend of mine just had this done on a modern sled, around $250 for nikasil coating on just one jug. Ouch!
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Do some shopping... I think i paid about $200 ea for Nicasil through Millenium.
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Up here it's $300.00 CDN per cylinder for a Nickasil job...
Not cheap.... :-(
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I have a few good used chromed Invader Cyliners if anyone needs one! $300 for plating is insane.
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no hones..use toilet bowl cleaner/boat hull cleaner, removes the glaze.oem service manuals are seldom wrong 8)
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OK, time to dig deeper into this discussion. Chrome lined cylinders were very common during the era that Kawasaki was in the snowmobile biz. I think even the Rupp, liquid Xenoahs used them, as did many other OEMs. At some point in time,...early '90s?? my memory is far from perfect...the OEMs changed to "Nicasil". Nickel, chrome, silicon. Supposedly, even a harder, more durable surface.
I managed to blow up the PTO piston in my Invader way back in the mid 80s, due to a classic Homer Simpson...Doooh mistake.
Because I am somewhat anal, I still saved the installation guide from the replacement piston....along with the seized piston as a trophy. :)
This was a "Lemans Pro Piston"...an exact, standard replacement.
OK....we can assume nobody knows EXACTLY what they're talking about...at least I take a certain "skeptical" approach...maybe I'm Mr. Spocks relation...only cold, hard, Vulcan logic applies here.
This guide....and I quote, verbatim..."When replacing or reringing the piston in a standard bore STOCK (sorry, my emphasis) cylinder, de-glazing is recommended using a ball type hone, or a standard hone with #500 grit stones.
The guide goes on to to mention using emery
cloth or a round file to lightly "chamfer" the port openings.
OK, I get that....
I tend to believe that chrome lined cylinders, while they may appear to the naked eye to have a mirror finish, upon microscopic examination have an excellent characteristic to retain oil. There is absolutely no need to start tearing up this finish aggressively using a hone.
Tory... you brought up an excellent point...while I am lucky and have an excellent spare cylinder for my Invader, I don't for my 83 Yamaha Vmax, which also has chrome lined cylinders. If I suffer another Homer Simpson....Doooh moment, and need to have a cylinder re-plated, why shouldn't I ask for Nicasil rather than chrome? Have you had some Kawi cylinders re-plated with Nicasil? Would a replacement piston and ring set designed for a chrome cylinder work perfectly in a Nicasil cylinder? I have to think so. If I send a scuffed up cylinder to get re-plated, I can't believe that it costs Millenium or U S Chrome any more to use Nicasil vs. Chrome.???
This sounds like a good topic for the TV show..."how it's made".... 8)
Obviously, the cost for re-plating is significant enough that we should explore the possibility of finding a good, used cylinder.
We all "get" the fact that you have to pay attention to the piston rings that you use during a rebuild....if you use a stock, replacement piston for a chrome cylinder, it will have iron rings. If you put an iron sleeve in an original chrome cylinder, you better make sure you change to chrome rings.
But I digress....
Kawhead, I have only been on here for a year or so....long enough to know that you tend to know absolutely what you're talking about....where are you reading this? I completely agree ...pretty much any acid is useful for dissolving any aluminum deposits off of the cylinder walls...which you darned well better do... just "enquiring minds want to know".... :D
Oh...one more thing....I'm not buying any of this talk about "glazing" of the cylinder occurring in a chrome cylinder......BUT...I have been wrong before...at least once or twice... ;D ;D
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kaw service manuals always recommend acid,as did the twister manuals...[xenoahs were iron bore]...if you acid a chrome bore after washing you can feel a light "texture" that will hold oil.....my dad started selling sleds in the 60's,merc,rupp,sno jet/kaw,even ski doo for two years,although I try to forget the ski don't years ::)