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Tech Information => General Help => Topic started by: Habbeli on January 28, 2013, 03:37:41 AM

Title: CDI different ignition-curves
Post by: Habbeli on January 28, 2013, 03:37:41 AM
Does anyone know the differences between the cdi box to Kawasaki different engines?
I have heard that the ignition curve differs between the engines  ::)
Title: Re: CDI different ignition-curves
Post by: Checkmarks on January 28, 2013, 06:54:07 PM
Here you go
Title: Re: CDI different ignition-curves
Post by: mswyka on January 29, 2013, 07:05:21 AM
Here you go

Mark, how does the cdi know whether the engine is cold or hot?
Title: Re: CDI different ignition-curves
Post by: Habbeli on January 29, 2013, 07:38:57 AM
Here you go

Oh, wonderfully Checkmarks,thanks  :-* But you have no entire table so you can see everything in the same window.
One more thing, what does Series1 Series2 and series3
Title: Re: CDI different ignition-curves
Post by: bryan_damone on January 29, 2013, 11:54:27 AM
Pretty sure these are point measurements that Mark has plotted and then fitted a line through (series1,2 etc. are the point data). The points of the cold curve were measured when the engine and CDI was cold and the points of the hot curve when everything was warmed up.  Based on the relatively buried location of the CDI, I'm guessing it would see temperatures ranging from ambient to that of the outside of the cylinders/crankcase.
Title: Re: CDI different ignition-curves
Post by: Checkmarks on January 29, 2013, 12:43:52 PM
Bryan is right.  Points measured and then excel plots, graphs and makes a file.  Then this forum does not afford for excel attachments so then the online converter makes it look like you see divided on two pages.

As far as hot and cold Mark, that was learned through experimentation.  The numbers moved while while verifying my data.

You are welcomed to my excel sheet just leave you e-mail Hab.
Title: Re: CDI different ignition-curves
Post by: gixxer6 on January 29, 2013, 01:04:11 PM
Is the shift in timing caused by temperature intentional?  Or is it simply an effect of temp on the electronics?  In other words, did Kawasaki engineers want it to shift with temp? 
Title: Re: CDI different ignition-curves
Post by: Checkmarks on January 29, 2013, 03:14:41 PM
Suspect the timing shift is intentional.  The repetitive numbers showed again and again.
Title: Re: CDI different ignition-curves
Post by: Habbeli on January 29, 2013, 04:58:31 PM
Bryan is right.  Points measured and then excel plots, graphs and makes a file.  Then this forum does not afford for excel attachments so then the online converter makes it look like you see divided on two pages.

As far as hot and cold Mark, that was learned through experimentation.  The numbers moved while while verifying my data.

You are welcomed to my excel sheet just leave you e-mail Hab.

my e-mail is the under my profile picture  ;D
Title: Re: CDI different ignition-curves
Post by: Habbeli on January 29, 2013, 05:46:20 PM
I also see that it distinguishes between CDI at -80 and -82 LTD
Someone who knows what?
Title: Re: CDI different ignition-curves
Post by: gixxer6 on January 29, 2013, 07:13:34 PM
I also see that it distinguishes between CDI at -80 and -82 LTD
Someone who knows what?

The 80' 4/6 timing curve shown in the manual looks very similar to the Invader curve on Marks graph...
Title: Re: CDI different ignition-curves
Post by: Checkmarks on January 31, 2013, 01:00:40 AM
Gix,

I just re-read your post.  The next time I find some idle time I will investigate the 4/6 Cdi.  This is if my Cdi's are stock.  One of the two should be stock.  In the end it is quite a bit of work getting those numbers when other projects are creating a road block.

When you say the 4/6 compares to my "Invader" graph I assume the progressive advance.  Maybe another way to word that is the graph of the function that is entirely positive sloped.

Maybe then I better label that "Ltd" function as the 81-82 Ltd.
Title: Re: CDI different ignition-curves
Post by: gixxer6 on January 31, 2013, 06:50:43 AM
It looks like this: 
Title: Re: CDI different ignition-curves
Post by: Marisa30 on February 16, 2013, 03:40:18 PM
According to the chart the Invader doesnt have a curve like the the LTD that has the big advance to start then retards allot. The invader only appears to change maybe 3 degrees from engagement to top RPM?
Title: Re: CDI different ignition-curves
Post by: Habbeli on February 16, 2013, 05:38:02 PM
So in other words I should have a CDI from a later LTD if I want an early ignition at lower revolutions  ::)
Title: Re: CDI different ignition-curves
Post by: Habbeli on March 05, 2013, 03:53:09 PM
Can I install a CDI from an LTD without changing the flywheel / ignition plate / coil  ???
Title: Re: CDI different ignition-curves
Post by: Trucker on March 05, 2013, 05:21:09 PM
Can I install a CDI from an LTD without changing the flywheel / ignition plate / coil  ???
yes
Title: Re: CDI different ignition-curves
Post by: Habbeli on March 06, 2013, 09:18:59 AM
Thanks for the reply Trucker  :-*,  then I just have to start looking for a CDI from a newer LTD   ;D
By the way, what should it be called? There's partnumbers but the CDI is labeled with something completely different .... :-\
Title: Re: CDI different ignition-curves
Post by: gixxer6 on March 06, 2013, 09:45:54 AM
Can I install a CDI from an LTD without changing the flywheel / ignition plate / coil  ???
yes

Trucker, Have you done this? 
Title: Re: CDI different ignition-curves
Post by: Trucker on March 06, 2013, 04:36:33 PM
I swapped a few around there was no seat of the pants change to it.
Title: Re: CDI different ignition-curves
Post by: Checkmarks on March 25, 2013, 05:31:25 PM
Well, I just got to the bottom of some more cdi work.  My 4/6 motor has one of those square like cdi's as opposed to a more rectangular cdi.  It looks more like an aftermarket but then it hooks up jut like any other Ltd cdi.

The point of doing this work was to see what is up with my motor.  It has an issue with revving up.  The motor will bog when the throttle is first put to WOT and then a moment or two later the motor screams up to the 8k's.  When the throttle is let off and then re-applied to WOT the motor will continue to bog down to 5300 rpm and then scream back up to the 8k's.  Additionally the motor hesitates around 5300 for a moment when WOT from 3k.  Something is up and I cannot quite put my finger on the problem.

I put some timing marks on the clutch or at least a TDC to verify the retarding action.  Getting overly detailed is pointless if you just want to see the retarding in action.  Seems this CDI box does what a standard Invader ignition does.  That is right, it looks like the timing only progresses to 10 to 12 BTDC.  This is nothing like the Ltd cdi. 

So I try putting a known true Ltd cdi on the motor and it would not even start.  It was like the timing was WAY to advanced.  Sometimes when trying to start there were backfires out the exhaust.  Other times it was backfiring out the carburetors.  In the end putting on the 81-82 Ltd cdi did not work.

My next try will be replacing the stator assemblage. 
Title: Re: CDI different ignition-curves
Post by: Habbeli on April 10, 2013, 06:21:50 PM
What happened with this?
Title: Re: CDI different ignition-curves
Post by: Habbeli on November 17, 2013, 12:41:06 PM
Bump  ;D
Title: Re: CDI different ignition-curves
Post by: sprocket on January 05, 2014, 09:30:12 AM
Interesting I ran my race engines to 9800 Rpms now on a dyno reading I never got a reading out of the timing curve everything else though. The one engine ran @ 9350 Rpms with 90hp, the 9800rpms over 100hp. The timing curve is a fixed 15 degrees on stock, there is a company offering Msd but the price is expensive there you can change all your settings
Title: Re: CDI different ignition-curves
Post by: Habbeli on February 02, 2014, 06:17:02 PM
Guys,,, we never got to the end of this thread.
Checkmarks, how did it go with your engine?
I really want to try a different ignition curve CDI so the question is, can I safely mount a cdi from a -82 LTD and not have to replace the flywheel and ignition plate?  I hope so  ;D  ;D  ;D
Title: Re: CDI different ignition-curves
Post by: Checkmarks on February 03, 2014, 12:13:23 AM
Hab,

I am in the process of welding up a new pipe and slapping on some 4/6 cylinders.  When I finish the pipe I will get to the answer.  Suspect bolting on the mono cdi still works.  Likely one week out to complete for me.

Standard round head lower unit with 4/6 cylinders/heads.  It will be a good valid test to see if just slapping on the cdi results in anything positive.
Title: Re: CDI different ignition-curves
Post by: Habbeli on February 05, 2014, 08:22:29 PM
Hab,

I am in the process of welding up a new pipe and slapping on some 4/6 cylinders.  When I finish the pipe I will get to the answer.  Suspect bolting on the mono cdi still works.  Likely one week out to complete for me.

Standard round head lower unit with 4/6 cylinders/heads.  It will be a good valid test to see if just slapping on the cdi results in anything positive.
That sounds great, hope it goes well with the pipe  :D
Title: Re: CDI different ignition-curves
Post by: Habbeli on January 28, 2015, 03:43:16 PM
Checkmarks,,  how is it going for you?  :)
Title: Re: CDI different ignition-curves
Post by: Checkmarks on January 29, 2015, 12:44:06 AM
Well, the pipe must be welded up by now!  The 4/6 cylinders are on the sled (IFS required a custom pipe) and that sled runs great.  I tried to look up information in my filing drawers and no luck there.  Let this be a lesson to make better notes.  Lately I have been tied up pulling fish from ice holes and modifying the fishing shelter.

Ice ovals in a couple of weeks.  The racing will get me spurred into action.
Title: Re: CDI different ignition-curves
Post by: Habbeli on March 12, 2015, 09:13:47 AM
Bryan is right.  Points measured and then excel plots, graphs and makes a file.  Then this forum does not afford for excel attachments so then the online converter makes it look like you see divided on two pages.

As far as hot and cold Mark, that was learned through experimentation.  The numbers moved while while verifying my data.

You are welcomed to my excel sheet just leave you e-mail Hab.

did you get my email address?
Title: Re: CDI different ignition-curves
Post by: Habbeli on March 12, 2015, 09:18:38 AM
Well, the pipe must be welded up by now!  The 4/6 cylinders are on the sled (IFS required a custom pipe) and that sled runs great.  I tried to look up information in my filing drawers and no luck there.  Let this be a lesson to make better notes.  Lately I have been tied up pulling fish from ice holes and modifying the fishing shelter.

Ice ovals in a couple of weeks.  The racing will get me spurred into action.

drove you about them all  ;D
Title: Re: CDI different ignition-curves
Post by: Habbeli on October 27, 2015, 07:30:18 PM
Checkmarks, where did you go?  I'd love to hear if I can change cdi  :P
Title: Re: CDI different ignition-curves
Post by: sprocket on November 06, 2015, 07:27:58 PM
It's hard to say if you get any advantages by doing so I don't Believe the hard starting is too far Advanced on the CDI boxes more like retarded. Trucker mentioned that you can plug-in any CDI from Kawasaki & it should work. Go ahead and try it tell us how it turns out. Every application is different meaning trail too wild porting (race Application). I cannot answer your 1st question accurately because I never tried it.
Title: Re: CDI different ignition-curves
Post by: Habbeli on November 07, 2015, 07:35:41 AM
 ;) ;D