KawasakiTrax Community
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: IraqvetUSMC on March 04, 2015, 09:07:16 AM
-
So my other thread is dying out haha. I read on an old thread on this website that someone said you cannot remove the oil injection pump because it lubricates the center crankshaft bearing. I find this hard to believe but I've never had it apart. They also stated that a bad injection pump will cause it to over oil? I am having an over oil issue with the sled and want to cap off the injection pump and run straight premix. Am I safe to do this? Thanks
-
No, you just can't remove the oil injection set up on an Invader. Take a close look at the "New to me Kawasaki snowmobile" section, and the thread about "oil injection" started by Interceptor398. Boomologist posted an excellent picture of an oil pump. You have to make sure the 3 oil outlet lines are routed correctly. As he mentioned, the one designed to send oil to the crankcase fitting puts out twice as much oil as the 2 designed to go to each cylinder. That crankcase outlet tube is the one that requires you to keep the injection system operating, since it pumps oil directly to the center crank bearings.
Most other oil injected sleds, you can by-pass the injection and run pre-mix....but, not such a good idea on Invaders....except when adding some pre-mix to the tank, in addition to the oil injection, when you're breaking in a freshly re-built motor.
If your sled has the oil tube for the center crankcase fitting running to one of the cylinders by mistake, that cylinder is getting twice as much oil as it should....just something to double-check.
The other thing that comes to mind that can cause the issues your having is the dang little o-rings in the carbs that go on the needle jet and fit down into a well in the bottom of the float bowl. Those little devil's need to form a perfect seal for the motor to run well. You might take a look at those, too.
Let us know how it goes.
Dang snow is about all melted down here... :'(
-
IMO the question isn't "Can you run an Invader on premix?", the question is how long will it run? The answer is, not as long as it would using the injection system. Technically, you can run it without oil at all, but you probably wouldn't get more than a mile. ;)
I have never ran premix myself, but have heard of many guys doing it. I don't know how long they will run that way. I do know for a fact that the Kawasaki engineers put a nozzle to the crankcase that will lubricate the center crank bearings on an Invader.
-
It wouldn't hurt to double check the oil pump cable adjustment, too.
When the throttle is released, the cam on the oil pump should rotate fully (forward toward the front of the sled) and come to rest against a "stop".
When it's adjusted properly, that cam will rest at it's "stopped" position at idle. As soon as you squeeze the throttle, the oil pump cable should start pulling the cam backwards. Literally, as soon as the carb slides move upwards a millimeter, the oil pump cam should start rotating.
Be kinda careful with the cable going to the oil pump cam, it's easy to kink it if your not careful.
If the cam isn't returning fully to it's "stopped" position at idle, you would be pumping more oil than needed at various throttle positions.
And, there is a little coil spring on the oil pump cam that rotates it forward that needs to be doing it's job.
I really don't think the oil pump would be pumping out too much oil if everything is adjusted properly and the outlet tubes are routed correctly.
Good Luck!
You're probably running out of snow too, aren't you?
-
I did check the cable and it does seem free and make contact with the stop once released. When I get some time here I will go through & check the adjustment. I appreciate all the info here. The sled was running great all until I ran it up a steep hill. Thats when the oil issue occurred. However I did have old 2stroke oil in the tank thats atlas 5 years old, could that have gummed something up going up the hill? And we still have a little snow here but the ice is thick. My buddy pulled my dead sled off the ice with his F-250 6.0 crew cab diesel jacked up on 37s. I said he was nuts lol. Quick question off the topic since you guys know your stuff. After riding my brake disc itself has become really sloppy & loose and bangs around. I haven't had time to check into this but is it a quick fix? Thanks again guys
-
Ah, yes, the floating disc. These sleds came with a floating disc...fixed calipers. Just the opposite of most cars and trucks with a fixed disc and floating calipers. Either design works.
Even when new, these sleds had a fair bit of wiggle to the disc.
There is a small, half-moon shaped key that fits in the jackshaft and engages a slot in the brake disc. It might be slightly worn. It a common as dirt size that any good hardware or automotive store would have, but you have to remove the jackshaft to replace it....kinda a hassle. And it's wonderful to put a dab of Never Seeze or grease on that key if you ever have it apart...that helps eliminate any rattling noise from the disc.
But, your probably fine.
You might check the brake adjustment. The nut at the top left of the chaincase at the pivot point of the brake lever adjusts the pad clearance. The service manual says to move the disc forward and backward and slowly tighten that nut until the pads just begin to move. That eliminates excess free play between the disc and pads. Obviously, don't tighten to the point where you have any drag on the disc.
The manual suggests replacing the pads if there is 7/16 inch of threads exposed after you have adjusted that nut. Don't worry too much if you do have that much. I've replaced the pads at that point before, and there is still a fair bit of pad material left.
The pads are a fairly quick, easy, cheap job to do when you need new ones.
So, you might check that pad adjustment, but don't worry about the disc....It's designed to float and center itself between the pads when you apply the brake. It flops around quite a bit when everything is in good shape. 8)
-
That is good to know about the brake disc. I wonder if the key came loose, as old as it is it should be rusted in place. Sounds like I should be spraying the hardware down with some pb blaster so I don't snap any jackshaft mounting bolts. As for my oil issue I will check the routing of the oil lines like you stated and check the little recoil spring on the cam lever. I will disassemble the carbs and clean them out and throw some new seals in, suck out the gas that has some premix in it and run new plugs. Hopefully this helps it out. The previous owner mentioned that this sled hadn't ran in 5 years because the crank seals were bad. Their is a new seal kit laying in the tool compartment along with brake discs haha. Would you think the sled could run fine for over and hour at wide open speeds with a bad crank seal and still make good power?
-
With a bad crank seal the sled will run the best it has ever run - right up until the point where it burns a hole down the center of the piston.
-
Carb O ring: Kawasaki pn # 92055-044, Arctic Cat pn# 6505-042, John Deere pn# R34812
The deere ones are cheaper, I just bought some last week for my Intruder :)
http://www.greenfarmparts.com/product-p/r34812.htm
REPLACE THOSE CRANK SEALS!!
-
Thanks for the o-ring part number, I need to change those. Is their anyway to check if the crank seals are bad? I heard that you can spray a little ether while its running down by the crank and see if it sucks it up. Another thing I noticed after the sled died going up the steep hill was while we were trying to start it again we tried a couple shots of ether through the carb filters and the funny thing I noticed was that it would not even hit off of ether , like it wasn't pulling it through the air filter. Now someone before me put Stihl chain saw air filters on both carbs and eliminated the stock air box. Should I ditch those filters and run the stock box and could excessive oil consumption be the cause of this air filters being clogged.?
-
I would ditch those filters and get an air box!
An excellent source for crank seals, carb o-rings and several other parts is Newbreedparts.com. It is an on-line store belonging to a member here JDMatt.
-
You can use the either trick on most engines but the Kawi has the oil pump gear box on the Pto side that covers the crank seal so I dont think it would work and mag side isn't accessible either. And not to mention the center seal O-rings... It's just a good safe bet to replace them and know that they are new. Definitely completely disassemble the carbs and replace those o-rings, ditch those Stihl filters and get a stock airbox!! The air filters won't cause it to use more oil but will affect how it runs and jetting. You can still buy service manuals at the kawi dealer or I see them on ebay too. Would be a good investment :)
-
Actually I do have the stock air box with the sled, I guess someone just liked the little filters better & wanted to clean up the engine compartment. I printed off the dealer assembly manual from vintage snow it has good info but not technical. So if the O-rings are bad could it cause a fuel issue which leads to not enough fuel and over oiling? I do plan on this being a nice summer project as I have started by removing my torn seat cover and waiting for my foam to dry out lol.
-
The only thing that would cause over oiling issues is the oil pump. Have you read this topic http://kawasakitrax.com/kawiforum/index.php?topic=1159.0 ? The Kawi service manual is very informative and I would highly recommend getting one and reading it :) Are you sure it's over oiling and not just getting too much gas? When the carb o-rings go bad they will cause it to run rich( gas leaks past the o-ring causing it to flood).
-
I know the spark plugs were soaked in oil and I have straight oil seeping out where the expansion chamber meets the headers at the springs. The oil was straight black. However I never changed the 5 year old 2 stroke oil in the tank. Could that old thick oil caused something to gum up in the injection pump and cause something to stick open allowing to much oil. But I will check out that thread u posted and read up.
-
Good morning, after reading this thread I see that the oil lines run to the 2 pistons and the center crank one. How do I tell that the crank banjo fitting is the bigger one or is it the bolts determined that? Also what size are these lines coming off the oil pump. Thanks
-
The brass banjo fittings are identical. The difference is the bolts.
You should have 2 bolts that have a needle like extension in the tip of the bolt with a tiny hole in the tip.
Those 2 go to the cylinders (interchangeable).
There is a 3rd bolt that does not have the needle type tip, it simply has a hole in the end of the bolt, which is a larger opening than the needle tipped ones.
That has to go to the center crankcase to lube the center crankshaft bearings.
The crankcase bolt allows about twice as much oil flow as the 2 for the cylinders.
The tubing.....I think is 1/8" I.D.....similar to primer hose. Use a high quality if you replace your original hoses.
-
Here's a good thread about the importance of the oil pump.
Oil Injector
« on: December 03, 2017, 10:59:29 AM »
Actually, if you type in premix in the search window there's lots of threads on the subject.
-
We have a few sleds and only one ever had a bad oil pump. I think that some of the information on that pump made it into the thread that is referenced above. Unless the pump has been abused - defined as given a chance to eat dirt or other gritty foreign objects, they are essentially bullet proof - after all they are self lubricating. Now, with that said, if a former owner decided to go the premix route and cut off the oil feed to the pump then it could have worn itself out. There is a good test in the manual to see if the pump is feeding enough, too little, or too much oil.
The assumption of many, if there is ever a combustion problem, is that the pump is not feeding enough oil. As I see it, except for a drive gear failure, any other failure of the pump can only cause it to pump more oil than it should - which is what you seem to be suggesting. Doing the test from the manual will help answer that question. If the flow rate is close to specification +/- 50% of what it should be, you are probably close enough to have the sled run acceptably.
-
We have a few sleds and only one ever had a bad oil pump. I think that some of the information on that pump made it into the thread that is referenced above. Unless the pump has been abused - defined as given a chance to eat dirt or other gritty foreign objects, they are essentially bullet proof - after all they are self lubricating. Now, with that said, if a former owner decided to go the premix route and cut off the oil feed to the pump then it could have worn itself out. There is a good test in the manual to see if the pump is feeding enough, too little, or too much oil.
The assumption of many, if there is ever a combustion problem, is that the pump is not feeding enough oil. As I see it, except for a drive gear failure, any other failure of the pump can only cause it to pump more oil than it should - which is what you seem to be suggesting. Doing the test from the manual will help answer that question. If the flow rate is close to specification +/- 50% of what it should be, you are probably close enough to have the sled run acceptably.
I agree with this 100%. I've been running several Kawi's for many years and only ever had two oil pumps fail, but the failure was the shaft seal that only caused a small leak over time. I've never seen engine damage as a result of a failed pump.
The 2-stroke injection oil technology has come a LONG way since these oil injection systems were designed. Most oils now-a-days are recommended to be a 50:1 mix. I can remember in the late 80's mixing everything 20:1. So like, mswyka said, as long as it's close you should be fine. That being said, I always make sure mine is set right to factory specs, cause too much oil is always better than not enough. :D
-
You can run invader or any Kawu T7 motor without the oil pump, IF you drill two holes in through the top half of the crankcase too feed premix to the inside bearings. Just like the outside bearings get lubricated (the holes exist for outside bearings).
I have 2 T7 Kawi motors without oil pumps. One is 74 El Tigre which comes stock as premix, and the other is a early modified factory invader motor (extra holes are drilled and pump is gone). All T7 motors have a very similar bottom end - early free air El Tigre, Invaders, 80 4/6, Intruder.
I race vintage Can-am motorcylces that came with injection and there is the same debate as to the pros and cons to premix vs pump. My engine guy drills the extra hole and I run premix. I have a modern 2 stroke dirtbike and it runs premix.
IMO, if its a race sled, I would run premix - these sled run 3/4 to wide open all the time. If I wanted a rider, I would leave the pump.
-
Here we go again:
The oil pump regulates the amount of oil the engine receives according to the amount of work it’s doing. At idle, where little oil is needed it produces about 100:1 ratio. The pump increases oil until at wide open throttle it produces about 20:1 ratio.
Premix is one ratio. At 50:1 it’s way rich for idle and way lean when under full load.
With oil injection the oil is injected after the fuel is mixed with air. With premix the oil is mixed with the fuel displacing some fuel before it’s mixed with air causing a lean condition.
Kawasaki put a lot of time and expense into engineering these engines. If premix was the best they would have went with that.
-
Here we go again:
The oil pump regulates the amount of oil the engine receives according to the amount of work it’s doing. At idle, where little oil is needed it produces about 100:1 ratio. The pump increases oil until at wide open throttle it produces about 20:1 ratio.
Premix is one ratio. At 50:1 it’s way rich for idle and way lean when under full load.
With oil injection the oil is injected after the fuel is mixed with air. With premix the oil is mixed with the fuel displacing some fuel before it’s mixed with air causing a lean condition.
Kawasaki put a lot of time and expense into engineering these engines. If premix was the best they would have went with that.
3 Very good points!
-
My "I just dragged it home" 440 has pemix in it with the cable off the oil pump, good thing I saw this thread. I don't know how long it's been on premix for but it was running ok.
I'll bet the previous owner had no idea about the center bearing oil requirements and neither did I.
I'm going to bleed the system and get it back on the oil injection before I ride it.
-
Please do yourself a favor and get a copy of the official Kawasaki manual for that sled. The oil pump must be set up correctly, cables adjusted, system bled, tested for output..... The manual will make this, and many other maintenance issues, very easy to accomplish. There is also a chapter that explains the theory behind various systems on the sled and how to test/repair them.
Good luck and happy sledding.
-
learned something new. I have an intruder ice racer bought last year from a guy in Wis. It was converted to premix. It runs great. But, when I removed the cylinders recently, I noticed it did not have the extra holes to lube the center bearings. Then a friend told me the intruders didn't have a center line from the oil pump to center bearings. I confirmed with the service manual. The bottom end seems the same as invader (which has the center oil line) or T7 El tigre which has the two extra holes.
So experts, why is the intruder different from the invader? Do the center bearings get less lubricant?
-
Great question (although I don't consider myself an "expert"). I don't have much experience with Intruder motors, but I did notice that the cranks have a different part number than Invaders. Maybe they have a different designed bearing?
I do know this, the Kawasaki engineers were experts. They added this specifically to the Invaders for a reason. And for this reason alone, I won't recommend to anyone that they run premix.
-
intruder cranks don't have the oil keepers on the center mains, must get enuf lube without the holes in case
-
I don't understand the benefits of going with premix over oil injection that regulates the ratio of the oil as explained above. ???
-
I don't understand the benefits of going with premix over oil injection that regulates the ratio of the oil as explained above. ???
I guess if you’re racing every ounce counts. So the couple pounds weight savings of the oil tank and possibly the pump if you can figure out how to drive the water pump without it. In that case, you’d also save the small parasitic drag of the pump.
-
I don't understand the benefits of going with premix over oil injection that regulates the ratio of the oil as explained above. ???
I very much remember getting my 1st sled in the Fall of 1978.
Yamaha had brought the revolutionary oil injection to the snowmobile industry in the early '70's.
Some of the early oil injection pumps from Yamaha were belt driven.
This led to a few failures....obviously a broken belt quickly blew an engine sky high.
By the time Kawasaki brought out the Intruder/Invaders for the '78 model year, both they and Yamaha were using a much more reliable (gear driven) oil pump.
Polaris, Cat, SkiDoo were literally drug kicking and screaming into incorporating oil injection.
Polaris was dominating cross country racing in the late '70's....and particularly the early '80's with the introduction of the Indy.
I remember Polaris claiming the advantage of pre-mix over oil injection. If you properly premix the oil with the gas in the tank, you KNOW the engine will be getting oil....important when riders were competing in the I-500 race.... ;)
There is some truth to that.
But eventually the more reliable injection set-ups were almost demanded by the buying public.
Polaris, Cat, SkiDoo eventually came around....My 1982 SkiDoo Blizzard 9500 was the first year that the Blizzards came from the factory with oil injection.
Hard to imagine today that it took awhile back then to convince some of the manufacturers that oil injection was the way to go.
Oil injection does bring another maintenance item to a sled.....there are probably lots of people out there that would be better off with pre-mixing. I'm talking about people that drag a "barn find" out and get it to run, without ever checking the oil tank for crud, checking the oil hoses, checking the adjustment....on and on....but those folks will probably blow up their sled anyway.... ::)
-
My sled was set up to run premix when I bought it and I ran it for a couple seasons before changing back to oil injection. There was no problem then or now.
Also for changing brake pads I made a special wrench by putting a 90 degree bend on a box end wrench and grinding it a little thinner. This special tool makes it super easy to get the one nut on the back of the chain case between it and the oil tank.