KawasakiTrax Community
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: mswyka on December 01, 2012, 09:29:19 AM
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We picked up an excellent 4/6 this past winter - the winter with no snow. She came in with a few nits that we patched up and for as often as I attempted to start the sled over the course of the year she started right up and hummed pleasantly. About a month ago I was in the machine shed to start a few sleds and she didn't want to start and when she did she only ran on the prime and then died out. This week we brought the carbs into the shop and replaced all the jets. Put the carbs back in and she runs the same way. Starts fine when primed and will run fine until the prime runs out. Everything in me points either to sticking fuel needles or some clog in the fuel delivery system. The thing that confuses me about this is the fact that when the carbs came off, the bowls were full of fuel. So, I am interested in suggestions from other 4/6 owners who may have had similar experiences.
Mark
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sounds like a blocked passageway inside the carbs. time for a good long soak. also check for a crankcase leak or a carb boot leak.
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Thanks Jim. I also like the way you hinted at crank seals by saying crankcase leak. ;)
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OK, spent some more time with the sled this afternoon. Confirmed that fuel pump is pumping fuel. Pulled carbs again. They look reasonably clean (reasonably meaning that they look cleaner than most of our carbs) and I was able to blow carb cleaner through each of the jets. Back on the sled it behaves the same way - it will run if primed or if the enricheners are opened. More fuel added when she dies and it will pick back up again so I am discounting electrical issues and am guessing that it is back to the carbs. I will swap in the 36s off the other invader and see what she says.
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I would guess that if it runs when you add MORE gas, then it is probably getting too much air in there from someplace. Not only a leaking crank seal, but maybe a crankcase leak along where the case splits. I have seen this happen if the wrong sealant is used and the motor gets flooded.
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With any old machine like these you need to assume all the seals are of the same age unless you know for sure otherwise. If the machine is to run like new you will need new seals and gaskets. Never over look the primer, they leak air into the fuel system.
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Mark,
I have had a pilot jet passage plugged that caused me a day to find the problem. It is a little tiny pin prick of a passage. One grain of sand and they are plugged. Spraying carb cleaner through did not get mine out. My motor did have new seals and good boots. Be cautious not to smoke one of those pistons. Swapping carbs with known good running carbs is a great choice testing for other Notorious leaks.
Found now two 4/6 sleds. One of the sleds had single plug cylinders (darn).
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Good afternoon and Merry Christmas.
Since the last post the engine has been out, received new crank seals and everything put back together nicely. Crank seals were due to be replaced, but were not cracked or broken and no obvious blow by. Engine still ran the same. I then convinced myself that it must be that the fuel degraded over the summer and it needed fresh fuel. So, the old fuel came out and fresh fuel went in. Still runs the same.
To recap -
Prime the engine and it will start and act like it is running properly for 30 seconds or so and then it dies. Re-prime and it will start again. Alternatively, if I open the enrichener when it starts to die it will come back. It will stay running with the enrichener open.
The carbs have been out, all the jets replaced, and carb cleaner blown through each of the ports.
Still not sure what I am doing wrong. Earlier this year it would start and run just fine. It was only toward the end of summer that it started behaving this way.
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Is fuel getting to the carbs? If not, check the fuel pump. If you have fuel in the carbs, there is probably a clogged passage.
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Mark,
I am with Gix here. If there is fuel in the carburetors, then you have the pilot passage plugged. When a sled idles it only draws fuel through the pilot passage that is metered by the pilot jet.
A fresh air leak is also something to look for specifically around the rubber boots the carburetors plug into.
Recap: plugged pilot system, no fuel in the fuel bowl, or a air leak (piston melter).
Merry Christmas. For my Christmas I got to change the seals in my 4/6 motor. I should have taken a pictures for the lot of you. Jim would have just one more nail in the 'change your seals' plank.
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fought a similar issue for quite awhile when first got my 4/6 going. Ended up being a coil problem. Only running on one plug per cylinder...
When it doesn't make sense, start at the begining, fuel, compression, spark...
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Mark,
You say it will stay running with the enrichener (choke) on. Stop playing around and pull the carburetors. Use a thin steel wire like on you find for tying trash bags closed. Strip the plastic off. Take that and push it through the pilot passage. Of course remove the pilot jet.
Now you said you replaced the jets. Did you replace the pilot jet? Tell the truth.
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Thank you for the advice and suggestions.
OK, carbs are coming off again today. I will let you know what I find.
Mark, yes, the pilot jets were changed. New OEM pilot, main and power jets. New "O" ring on the needle jet thing. Everything inspected upon re-assembly and re-installation of the engine into the sled.
By the way, we had a white Christmas but not enough to run yet.
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Is the primer hooked up and have you watched for air bubbles in the gas lines? Is the gas line in the tank good and the end sitting on the bottom of the tank?
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Thanks for the suggestion. I will double check.
Carbs came out, were cleaned out, sprayed out, blown out and then re-installed. Ran the same. If I can keep it up around 3,500 she will stay running.
For now back outside to plug off the primers.
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Bob, back out to the sled to check the primers - no bubbles. Sealed the primers and no change in operation. I realize that I am probably missing something obvious, but it is still the same.
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If I can keep it up around 3,500 she will stay running.
Idle set too low?
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Oil fouled plug?
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If I read the manual correctly, standard idle setting is 2,500 - Normally we set the sleds up to idle around 2,800 or 3,000.
Mark, I will check the plugs. It has 4 Denso Iridium.
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4/6 has a higher idle (3,000), as long as idle is set below the clutch engagement point (4100 rpm), you'd be fine.
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Snowing now, it is going to have to wait until tomorrow.
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2500 sounds more like for a 78 Intruder. Yea, I'd bump my idle up more around 3200-3500. Like Jim said, as long as you are below the clutch engagement you are fine.
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2500 is the correct idle for a 4/6
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I think I am about ready to give up on this 4/6 and put it back in the barn or post it to craigslist. There was a time that I thought that I could figure out every problem - and when I couldn't there was always someone here on the forum who would offer some sage advice. But this one just has be bumfuzzled. No matter what I do I can't seem to keep it running for more than 10 to 20 seconds below 3,500 RPM. I had convinced myself that it was something obvious, but no matter what I check nothing has made itself obvious.
While I can't rule out carburation completely, the carbs have been checked, re-checked, cleaned and checked again. Crank seals have been replaced.
It starts easy, and runs like a banshee above 3,500.
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Change the tach Mark. BTW mine wont run very long below 3000. ???
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Mailman, good to hear from you. I would be OK with the slow die off that I get from the other Invaders, but this one Idles level for 10 to 20 seconds and then just drops dead rapidly, not slowly like the other Invaders.
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Clutch kicks in at 4,100 so set the idle higher
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Have you tried a leak down test??
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Leak down test? No I have not. Not sure I have equipment for that since my compression gauge is a rubber stopper type rather than a screw in. I will see if I can find one.
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Yeah, I know the feeling. when I was fighting with my 4/6, it ended up being flakey ignition coils. Put a new pair on and it took right off. I would have sworn it was carburation, went through 4 or 5 sets of carbs.
yours still sounds like pilot jets..
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Could it be the fuel pump is not getting good pulse at lower RPM? Maybe the fuel is going away after it uses up whats in the bowl. When you restart after it dies, do you have to use the primer or enricher?
I know you went through the carbs. But, did you soak them? A friend told me that sometimes you need to soak the bowl where the pilot jet flows to loosen and get rid of any dirt in there. I went through similar symptoms with this Invader I had problems with it dropping one cylinder. Even after I cleaned the carbs. I filled the bowl of the carb with carb cleaner and let it sit for an hour or so. Blew it out and reinstalled, and found all those problems were gone. I gotta believe that soak made the difference. Checkmarks was right about that passage and I used his advise with the small wire to clean it. I read this thread multiple times and it helped me to fix my sled.
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Thanks for the suggestions. I am willing to pull, clean, soak, and poke at the carbs one more time. It will probably have to wait until Saturday since it is back to work tomorrow.
Mark
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Well...I think that we are making progress. 4/6 carbs came off and the pair from our ill fated 1980 Invader went on. Lo and behold it ran just the same way as the 440 Invader, so this gave me some hope. Pulled the 4/6 carbs apart again looked through the passages, carb cleaner, air, cleaning rod - got shot in the eye with carb cleaner in the process - but did find that the orifice to the reservoir in the needle jet was gummed up. Everything cleaned and the carbs went back on. Now she seemed to idle but would not accelerate. A further check found that PTO side was running and Mag side is cold. Mag carb coming off again.
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OOPS, helps to re-install the Pilot Jet. But still cannot get a steady idle.
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;)
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Well....the engine is coming out again. Tinkered with it until it seemed like it was running adequately and then went out for a tool around the back forty. Side by side with our 79 Intruder, the Intruder read 30 MPH and the 4/6 read 60! But after one turn something started vibrating at a rate that would shake your teeth.
Back at the barn two of the allen head cap screws had worked themselves free and were being beat up by the back side of the drive clutch. Looked like we lost the oil out of the gear case and somewhere we had a coolant leak adding a misty fog to the whole event. So the long and the short of it is that the engine is coming out for a bottom to top re-build and will likely end up with a new crankcase in order the allen head capscrews in place. And given what we have been through so far i might even accept a low-ball offer from someone who wants their own personal headache.
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Hey Mark
If I was closer I'd make you an offer. It and my 340 Invader would make a good pair.
seriously if you wanted to take a trip north I would make an offer on your 4/6
Lloyd
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Yup, probably time to send it to me along with an extra windscreen for my 4/6....
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Jim, I couldn't in good conscience do that to you. But the more I think about it, if someone wanted to trade for a solid, good looking, good running 82 Intruder we might be able to work something out.
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Basket cases are my speciality. been one for years... :P
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Make sure you don't have a mouse in ur pipes, even just a small mouse bed can really send you on a wild goose chase!
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Make sure you don't have a mouse in ur pipes, even just a small mouse bed can really send you on a wild goose chase!
Thanks, I too have been there and done that. Come to think of it, I hate mice and all the nasty things that they do.
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Maybe the track is slipping on the drive shaft? or the drive wheels? (clue being the speedo reading high) or maybe just a bad speedo and it isn't related...
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Maybe the track is slipping on the drive shaft? or the drive wheels? (clue being the speedo reading high) or maybe just a bad speedo and it isn't related...
What? I think I need to post a photo or two.
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You can't be saying a mere mechanical device is going to defeat you!!!?? I have faith in you!!
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It is 57 degrees and raining in New York. So this evening was a perfect opportunity to spend some time in the garage and pull the 4/6 engine apart.
Except for the PTO side everything on it looked really good until I got the bottom of the case off and found that when I rotated the crank it would pop up out of the cradle on the PTO side. I don't know what the former owner did to this sled, but this crank is never going to work the way it is.
Maybe I wouldn't feel so bad except I just put my last Invader crank into our 1980 Invader.