KawasakiTrax Community
Tech Information => General Help => Topic started by: invaderpat on December 12, 2020, 01:56:44 PM
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Hello all. I am new to this site, but "old" to the ways of Kawasaki snowmobiles. I still have my 1st sled, a 1979 Drifter 440. I bought it new in November of 1979. I recently pulled a little maintenance on it, fresh premix, new filter, one fuel line,new plugs. As always, it started on the 3rd pull. Unfortunately, that is not the reason for this post. In October, I picked up a 1979 Invader 440 from an 82 year old nice guy recovering from heart surgery and cleaning out his shop. I am a relatively youthful 66, also with a repaired ticker! No, to make a very long story as short as I can, here goes. This Invader has 1220 miles on the speedo. The hood, chassis and seat are very straight and clean. The owner said it was never in a woods, only on lakes. It has the Kawaski go fast kit with twin pipes and he says different jugs, so I believe him. Only thing, it hasn't run in 35 years! Clean gas tank, all fuel and oil lines, new fuel pump, primer, cleaned and o/hd carbs, spark plugs and wire caps, and I'm sure more. It starts ( after more pulls than I want to mention) and runs. It will run, accelerate, and idle after a bit. It then will eventually die unless you keep the throttle working. The plugs are always shiney wet, with no color. It sounds ok at high rpm but is very puny from 3000 on up. We have checked the carbs and boots and crank seals with ether while running. No change. Here is the kicker. We have checked compression. It is pretty even at about 70 psi. It will go up to 100 if you squirt some oil in the cylinders. This sounds low to me. Using a cheap handheld pyrometer, the left cyl. (sitting on the seat) will run around 550-600 degrees. The right cylinder never gets over 250. We have adjusted, readjusted, and readjusted again the carbs to spec. We came to the conclusion yesterday(my best friend and real mechanic and me) that the old girl is worn out. Looking for thoughts. Thanks
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Good afternoon and welcome. 79 Invader, great sled! And good find.
1200 miles should not be worn out. And 70 psi is on the extreme high end for these sleds. Personally I have never seen anything over 65. So compression sounds fine.
The fact that you can get it to run tells me that the coils and ignition are working properly.
One cylinder hot and one cylinder wet. Could be almost anything so I will start with the most basic of basics. It is a 40 year old sled that has not been run in 35 years. In my mind there is no question that it needs new crank seals. Once it has the new seals then you can focus on the other items. Any time I have a wet cylinder I suspect an air leak.
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Thanks for the reply. Good news on the compression. Both plugs are equally wet.
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I disagree about the compression. A healthy Invader cylinder should be in the low to mid 100’s. The manual states that 90psi is the MINIMUM. If you are only seeing 70psi, something is wrong. You will want to replace the crank seals anyway, so it’s a good time to tear it down and inspect.
If it really has the full power up kit with the factory ported cylinders, I would be extremely interested to know what the porting specs are. I have the kit pipes and have been looking for the ported cylinders for many years and have been unable to find them.
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Welcome to the site! Compression sounds low. Crank seals is always a good place to start.
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I disagree about the compression. A healthy Invader cylinder should be in the low to mid 100’s. The manual states that 90psi is the MINIMUM. If you are only seeing 70psi, something is wrong. You will want to replace the crank seals anyway, so it’s a good time to tear it down and inspect.
If it really has the full power up kit with the factory ported cylinders, I would be extremely interested to know what the porting specs are. I have the kit pipes and have been looking for the ported cylinders for many years and have been unable to find them.
My bad, senior moment. Confused 65 with 165. It is a good thing that you are keeping me honest. Better double check the rest of my advice.
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HO HO HO! I'm having a Santa moment! Good to hear we "all agree" with low compression. Both my buddy and I have been involved in the automotive and heavy diesel repair business all our careers. But, when it comes to something like this 2 stroke, we know we're out of our element. As far as pulling the motor, next issue. I have found what appears to be complete Kawaski service maual, parts, and setup up info on line. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they don't give operation type steps to do major repairs like pull the motor, reseal, and probably pop off the heads and take a look. Is that available elsewhere on this site, or where can I find or buy it? Thanks
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Oops. I guess that is why I'm retired. My service info that I have DOES have details on R&R and engine repairs. Looks like I just need to get another cup of coffee and read up! Thanks
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Time to shut off this thread for now. This will be a great project for 2021. We will pay close attention to the jugs when its apart and see if anyone can determine if they are special ones or not. Merry Christmas all!
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Going to make us wait until next year!?!?!? BOOO! Haha. Enjoy the holidays!
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Back in the day, someone was making "big bore" jugs for the Invaders. I've seen the add but never an actual jug.
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Back in the day, someone was making "big bore" jugs for the Invaders. I've seen the add but never an actual jug.
Was this an aftermarket company? I've seen guys do big bore Invaders using steel sleeves, buy can't say I've ever seen or heard of someplace offering a kit...
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Some place in my archives I have an old snowmobiling magazine with a small add in the back for a company selling these big bore jugs. If I get a chance I will see if I can find it again.
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Very interesting!
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Update!! Spring comes early in the Midwest! We have started to pull the engine on the Invader. Antifreeze is out, radiator off, exhaust off, everything that should be removed or uplugged is (we hope!). Waiting on a clutch puller tool to come in. Looking in the exhaust ports, it looks pretty good. Pistons and rings are clean and free. From what I can see the cylinders don't have any deep scratches. It will be time for an autopsy soon!
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Does it look to have been ported?
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We will find out tomorrow (clutch puller came in this afternoon!) We can see that it has been split open and was apart somewhere in the past. Correct me if I'm wrong, the uprate kit was installed after delivery, correct? When it is apart, will pictures tell you the story? Measurements? What am I to look for?
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Well, its apart. Not sure of how to measurte the ports from the inside. My caliper wouldn't fit inside. Ports look pretty big, but again, don't know what standard looks like. Ideas?
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Here is the intake side. Should have went with the above.
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Easiest way to tell is to see if the casting marks inside the ports have been removed. Looks like they have not, but it's hard to tell with the shadows in the pictures.
Yes, the kit was offered as an add on after the fact. It appears as though most didn't opt to have their cylinders sent in for the porting. I have yet to see one with the kit pipes that has been ported.
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OK, casting marks? Smoothed out like polished racing heads?
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Yes, if it has not been ported, the ports will be rough. If it has been ported, it will be smooth and "polished".
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Just looked at a cylinder a while ago.I have a new picture. In some ways it loks like someone may have done something, maybe not. It isn't perfectly smooth,but then again?
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It looks like there has been some work done. It would be interesting to measure them and compare against the stock port dimensions in the FSM.
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Where can one find the stock port dimensions?
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Port dimensions are shown in the specs section of the factory service manual.
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This is the first I've seen an Invader with kit pipes that has ported cylinders that were potentially done by Kawasaki. Do you see any engraving or markings on the outside of the cylinders? Did the PO specifically say that he had Kaw do the porting?
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Well, I would have to call the previous owner and check his memory. The engine is at my pals garage. When I get back to it, I'll look at things carefully (for any markings).Awaiting parts to go back together. I'll try to measure things too.
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Still don't have quite the correct tool to measure the ports. But, did look at the cylinders more carefully. Does this stammp mean anything?
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Better picture.
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I checked a few cylinders and they also have a stamp in the same place. I have no idea what they represent but it would be good to figure out.
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I made the call yesterday to the original owner "InvaderTom" He did recall "some' details of the go fast kit. He said he sent his cylinders to a "Kawasaki motorcycle" shop in Michigan for the porting (so I guess they really are ported). He said they returned them with the pipes. At this time and for many years, the prev. owner ran a very respected competition and racing engine shop in downtown Indianapolis. At one time they did all the machine work on the turbo Buicks that John Menard ran at Indy! He couldn't remeber the details of where he sent them, but said his son may. He said he'll dig into it! On another note, steering arms. With the engine out, Im cleaning up the belly pan. A lot of oil and trash from 40 years! I noticed the rh steering arm appears to be bent down. The tie rod bolt has dug into the pan and gone all the way through. For the life of me I can't see how that heavy piece could be bent. But it sure is dug all the way through the pan.
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Must have hit something solid?? I have an 80 Intruder with a bent spindle but it drives fine.
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I'm starting to think I'm figuring out the old sled. As to the tie rod bolt cutting into the belly pan, I figured out that the tie rod is supposed to be on the top side of the steering arm! Everything is as free as a breeze now. Then I asked myself, "Why would it be changed from the way its supposed to be, being reversed?"I think I have the answer. Looking at one of the pipes, it looks like a crease (under all the rust!) about where it would be close to the arm. Looking more carefully at the pan, I think it was notched out for clearance. Does anyone out there know if this might be the case (pipe interference?)
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My kit pipes fit right on without modification to the steering. The only thing I needed to do was cut additional holes in the pan for the exhaust exits.
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Thanks. Good to know. Another mystery. Who knows what else we'll find as it goes back together.
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HELLO AGAIN! We had "snow last nite in the midwest. So, we decided we better get back to putting the old girl back together. Just kidding, but not about the snow. I have attached some pictures of the cyls. after we ran a brand new flex hone thru them. They look good, except. One has some scrathes that loook uglier after we honed them. We remeasured the cyls. and they are still right on the money for the tight side of spec. Looking for expert "opinions. Thanks
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Opinion, for what it is worth. We have enough sleds that if these were the only cylinders that we had, I would probably run them - understanding that if i had a problem there are other sleds that we can pull out. But, if I only had one sled I would not want to start with cylinders with scratches like these. I would either look for other cylinders, sleeve or re-plate.
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Well, I haven't given up yet! Do you think a flex hone might smooth them out if we keep at it? Probably nothing to lose at this point.
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We are headed out of town, but when we get back in a week or so, if you would like, we can check to see if we have any decent cylinders.
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Don't go to any trouble, but if you have some on hand, send me a picture. Thanks
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Opinion, for what it is worth. We have enough sleds that if these were the only cylinders that we had, I would probably run them - understanding that if i had a problem there are other sleds that we can pull out. But, if I only had one sled I would not want to start with cylinders with scratches like these. I would either look for other cylinders, sleeve or re-plate.
I will second this advice.