Author Topic: Oil injection pump removal on invader?  (Read 14224 times)

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ajohnson83

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Re: Oil injection pump removal on invader?
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2018, 10:13:17 AM »
Good morning,  after reading this thread I see that the oil lines run to the 2 pistons and the center crank one. How do I tell that the crank banjo fitting is the bigger one or is it the bolts determined that? Also what size are these lines coming off the oil pump. Thanks

rminier

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Re: Oil injection pump removal on invader?
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2018, 08:06:52 AM »
 The brass banjo fittings are identical. The difference is the bolts.
You should have 2 bolts that have a needle like extension in the tip of the bolt with a tiny hole in the tip.
Those 2 go to the cylinders (interchangeable).
There is a 3rd bolt that does not have the needle type tip, it simply has a hole in the end of the bolt, which is a larger opening than the needle tipped ones.
That has to go to the center crankcase to lube the center crankshaft bearings.
 The crankcase bolt allows about twice as much oil flow as the 2 for the cylinders.
 The tubing.....I think is 1/8" I.D.....similar to primer hose. Use a high quality if you replace your original hoses.
75 SnoJet Astro SS, 79 Kawasaki Invader 440 (two of them), 81 Scorpion Sidewinder, 82 Blizzard 9500, 83 Yamaha Vmax 540, 97 MXZ 670....and holding...for now.

Vader440

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Re: Oil injection pump removal on invader?
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2018, 03:24:14 PM »
Here's a good thread about the importance of the oil pump.
Oil Injector
« on: December 03, 2017, 10:59:29 AM »
Actually, if you type in premix in the search window there's lots of threads on the subject.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2018, 03:29:10 PM by Vader440 »

mswyka

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Re: Oil injection pump removal on invader?
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2018, 08:31:45 PM »
We have a few sleds and only one ever had a bad oil pump.  I think that some of the information on that pump made it into the thread that is referenced above.  Unless the pump has been abused - defined as given a chance to eat dirt or other gritty foreign objects, they are essentially bullet proof - after all they are self lubricating.  Now, with that said, if a former owner decided to go the premix route and cut off the oil feed to the pump then it could have worn itself out.  There is a good test in the manual to see if the pump is feeding enough, too little, or too much oil.

The assumption of many, if there is ever a combustion problem, is that the pump is not feeding enough oil.  As I see it, except for a drive gear failure, any other failure of the pump can only cause it to pump more oil than it should - which is what you seem to be suggesting.  Doing the test from the manual will help answer that question.  If the flow rate is close to specification +/- 50% of what it should be, you are probably close enough to have the sled run acceptably.
Intruders:  1978, 1979, 1981 Custom (Pink)
Invaders:   1980 440
Projects:    1981 Invader 440

gixxer6

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Re: Oil injection pump removal on invader?
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2018, 09:37:25 AM »
We have a few sleds and only one ever had a bad oil pump.  I think that some of the information on that pump made it into the thread that is referenced above.  Unless the pump has been abused - defined as given a chance to eat dirt or other gritty foreign objects, they are essentially bullet proof - after all they are self lubricating.  Now, with that said, if a former owner decided to go the premix route and cut off the oil feed to the pump then it could have worn itself out.  There is a good test in the manual to see if the pump is feeding enough, too little, or too much oil.

The assumption of many, if there is ever a combustion problem, is that the pump is not feeding enough oil.  As I see it, except for a drive gear failure, any other failure of the pump can only cause it to pump more oil than it should - which is what you seem to be suggesting.  Doing the test from the manual will help answer that question.  If the flow rate is close to specification +/- 50% of what it should be, you are probably close enough to have the sled run acceptably.

I agree with this 100%.  I've been running several Kawi's for many years and only ever had two oil pumps fail, but the failure was the shaft seal that only caused a small leak over time.  I've never seen engine damage as a result of a failed pump. 

The 2-stroke injection oil technology has come a LONG way since these oil injection systems were designed.  Most oils now-a-days are recommended to be a 50:1 mix.  I can remember in the late 80's mixing everything 20:1.  So like, mswyka said, as long as it's close you should be fine.  That being said, I always make sure mine is set right to factory specs, cause too much oil is always better than not enough.   :D

Teherr

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Re: Oil injection pump removal on invader?
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2019, 08:41:19 AM »
You can run invader or any Kawu T7 motor without the oil pump, IF you drill two holes in through the top half of the crankcase too feed premix to the inside bearings.  Just like the outside bearings get lubricated (the holes exist for outside bearings).

I have 2 T7 Kawi motors without oil pumps. One is 74 El Tigre which comes stock as premix, and the other is a early modified factory invader motor (extra holes are drilled and pump is gone).  All T7 motors have a very similar bottom end - early free air El Tigre, Invaders, 80 4/6, Intruder. 

I race vintage Can-am motorcylces that came with injection and there is the same debate as to the pros and cons to premix vs pump.  My engine guy drills the extra hole and I run premix.  I have a modern 2 stroke dirtbike and it runs premix. 

IMO, if its a race sled, I would run premix - these sled run 3/4 to wide open all the time.  If I wanted a rider, I would leave the pump. 
440 Invaders
440 LTD Monohead
Liquifire
80' 4/6 
Intruder Ice Oval Racer
74 El Tigre T7 Free Air
80 Polaris 440 TX
250 & 340 Enticers

Boomologist

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Re: Oil injection pump removal on invader?
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2019, 12:41:44 PM »
Here we go again:
The oil pump regulates the amount of oil the engine receives according to the amount of work it’s doing. At idle, where little oil is needed it produces about 100:1 ratio. The pump increases oil until at wide open throttle it produces about 20:1 ratio.
Premix is one ratio. At 50:1 it’s way rich for idle and way lean when under full load.
   With oil injection the oil is injected after the fuel is mixed with air. With premix the oil is mixed with the fuel displacing some fuel before it’s mixed with air causing a lean condition.
   Kawasaki put a lot of time and expense into engineering these engines. If premix was the best they would have went with that.

Vader440

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Re: Oil injection pump removal on invader?
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2019, 04:57:00 PM »
Here we go again:
The oil pump regulates the amount of oil the engine receives according to the amount of work it’s doing. At idle, where little oil is needed it produces about 100:1 ratio. The pump increases oil until at wide open throttle it produces about 20:1 ratio.
Premix is one ratio. At 50:1 it’s way rich for idle and way lean when under full load.
   With oil injection the oil is injected after the fuel is mixed with air. With premix the oil is mixed with the fuel displacing some fuel before it’s mixed with air causing a lean condition.
   Kawasaki put a lot of time and expense into engineering these engines. If premix was the best they would have went with that.
3 Very good points!

11c

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Re: Oil injection pump removal on invader?
« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2019, 06:32:40 PM »
My "I just dragged it home" 440 has pemix in it with the cable off the oil pump, good thing I saw this thread. I don't know how long it's been on premix for but it was running ok.
I'll bet the previous owner had no idea about the center bearing oil requirements and neither did I.
I'm going to bleed the system and get it back on the oil injection before I ride it.
Retired team SKI-DOO drag racer.
SEA-DOO rider now on warm sunny days.
Current vintage sled;1980 KAWASAKI INVADER 440
1971 & 1972 Firebird Formula 455's

Boomologist

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Re: Oil injection pump removal on invader?
« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2019, 01:04:31 AM »
Please do yourself a favor and get a copy of the official Kawasaki manual for that sled. The oil pump must be set up correctly, cables adjusted, system bled, tested for output..... The manual will make this, and many other maintenance issues, very easy to accomplish. There is also a chapter that explains the theory behind various systems on the sled and how to test/repair them.
Good luck and happy sledding.

Teherr

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Re: Oil injection pump removal on invader?
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2019, 06:12:14 PM »
learned something new.   I have an intruder ice racer bought last year from a guy in Wis.  It was converted to premix.  It runs great.  But, when I removed the cylinders recently, I noticed it did not have the extra holes to lube the center bearings.  Then a friend told me the intruders didn't have a center line from the oil pump to center bearings.  I confirmed with the service manual.  The bottom end seems the same as invader (which has the center oil line) or T7 El tigre which has the two extra holes. 

So experts, why is the intruder different from the invader?  Do the center bearings get less lubricant? 
440 Invaders
440 LTD Monohead
Liquifire
80' 4/6 
Intruder Ice Oval Racer
74 El Tigre T7 Free Air
80 Polaris 440 TX
250 & 340 Enticers

gixxer6

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Re: Oil injection pump removal on invader?
« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2019, 08:38:46 AM »
Great question (although I don't consider myself an "expert").  I don't have much experience with Intruder motors, but I did notice that the cranks have a different part number than Invaders.  Maybe they have a different designed bearing? 

I do know this, the Kawasaki engineers were experts.  They added this specifically to the Invaders for a reason.  And for this reason alone, I won't recommend to anyone that they run premix. 

kawhead

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Re: Oil injection pump removal on invader?
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2019, 10:13:07 AM »
intruder cranks don't have the oil keepers on the center mains, must get enuf lube without the holes in case

Vader440

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Re: Oil injection pump removal on invader?
« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2019, 04:27:56 PM »
I don't understand the benefits of going with premix over oil injection that regulates the ratio of the oil as explained above.  ???

gixxer6

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Re: Oil injection pump removal on invader?
« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2019, 07:24:26 PM »
I don't understand the benefits of going with premix over oil injection that regulates the ratio of the oil as explained above.  ???

I guess if you’re racing every ounce counts.  So the couple pounds weight savings of the oil tank and possibly the pump if you can figure out how to drive the water pump without it.  In that case, you’d also save the small parasitic drag of the pump.